S02E51 DOPAMINE MOTIVATION and CROSSFIT

Why do some athletes continue CrossFit for years while others burn out and quit? Along with special return guest coach Adam Ramsden, @w.a.ramsden, Dave and Sam tee off of a recent podcast "Controlling Dopamine for Motivation" by Dr. Andrew Huberman and take a deeper dive into the good ways and not-so-good ways CrossFit athletes find ways to motivate themselves, and how we can all use the concept of dopamine to improve our training patterns and behavior.

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S02E51 DOPAMINE MOTIVATION and CROSSFIT

[00:35:54] David Syvertsen: All right. Welcome back to the HerdFit podcast. I am coach David Syvertsen. I'm here with Dr. Sam Rhee, and we have a special guest, our first return guest ever. If you guys go back and scroll back to our first ever episodes of the herd fit podcast, coach Adam Ramsden, and on that's when we used to shoot the episodes in the gym with all these wires.

And now we've upgraded to a storage closet in the back of the gym, on a cafeteria table with chalk as our microphone stand,

[00:36:22] Adam Ramsden: but there's headphones. So we have had,

[00:36:24] David Syvertsen: Adam was the most listened to guests for a long time at our most uh, app downloads ever were when Ramson was on. And then we had this fellow named Chris Henshaw come on.

And he pat recently passed Adam in the standings and he put his foot down and said, Hey, I got to come back. Nah, I'm just kidding. You. Didn't ask to come back. We asked him to come back. Welcome back. Thank you. Well, good to be back. All right. So today's episode is gonna, we just kinda talked about how we want to introduce this topic and it's going to be about, dopamine slash psychological impact biology that goes into the CrossFitter and our routines and how we pursue rewards, results, motivation, fitness.

And there's a reason why we want to talk about this, and it's not necessarily just for the science reasoning behind it, but we listened to a podcast from the human lab. And I just want to get this right. I have it written down. Dr. Andrew Huberman is a tenured professor of neurobiology at the Stanford school of medicine.

He has his own podcast. They're really scientific. He's decent at tying dumbing it down to someone like myself. And he did a podcast called controlling your dopamine for motivation and. I listened to it. I think three times listen to it. When it first came out, I just recently listened to it again.

And the entire time I listened to this, I was thinking about CrossFitters myself and the people that we coach. And I also, what inspired me to want to do a podcast about this, even though it's going to be a little gray. I think for some of us is Sam and I. A lot of our off camera slash off microphone conversations when it comes to bison is truly not to put ourselves up on a pedestal is how we can help people better.

And a lot of the things that we internally struggle with is how do we always keep people motivated? And why do people get burned out across it? Why do people disappear? Then come back, disappear, come back, come on, come. They're on fire for three weeks. We don't see them for three months and there's no judgment.

There. There's a lot of lifestyle factors that go into it. I've been through it before several times. And we, we know we, we talk all the time, what can we do to help people stay motivated? Cause we know that when you're motivated and you're achieving things and you're working hard, it, it brings a different level of fulfillment to people.

And that's what really what we're here for. We're not trying to get everyone a six pack. We want people to be happy and the six pack can be a little, like I was

[00:38:33] Sam Rhee: about to say that would be

[00:38:34] Adam Ramsden: nice for

[00:38:35] David Syvertsen: people, but you know, it goes so much deeper than the physical element. That's what I'm trying to say.

Sam, before we, I kind of dive into how I want to approach this and how, and then get your guys' feedback on it. Give us your kind of, I don't know, I don't want to call it a medical background, but kind of like your scientific background on dopamine and your positives and negatives about it.

Yeah.

[00:38:54] Sam Rhee: Dr. Huberman is a pretty smart guy and I listened to the podcast too, and he talks a lot and he tries, and he does try to. What's happening. Neurobiologically that, in terms of what we actually know about dopamine pathways in the brain to how we can alter or change our behavior and our patterns to improve our lives.

And he's big in, in, in all of his podcasts about using correlates in neurobiology to change. What you do every day to make yourself be the best person that you can be. And, he talks the main thing about dopamine that he talks about, which is this part is a hundred percent true, is that there are two major pathways of dopamine in the brain.

The first one is, and I won't go into very specific, but it's about the, what we're going to be talking about, about, reward, motivation, craving pleasure. And then there's the other pathway, which you might know as the one about Parkinson's disease, where if you lose your dopamine, Transmission in that pathway, you have motor issues and you get very static.

And dopamine has sort of fallen into our popular culture as something that you use to describe an up or, pleasure, or when you do something that's really fun or good, you get this dopamine hit and that's sort of true. But some of the research now suggests that dopamine is also really more of motivational salients, which is what they call it, which is basically it allows you to watch.

Do things. So for example, they speculate an evolution, like things that are of high priority increase your dopamine because you have to want to do those, those tasks, whatever those tasks are there, they're mostly survival related tasks. And if you have a low dopamine state you don't necessarily have a lot of motivation to do some of these things.

And, he talks about the phases and the cycles. And that makes sense, right? If you, you, you have these issues that you have to face immediately and you, you want to be in a high motivational state. And then once that issue is addressed, you drop into a low motivational state. It makes no sense to be constantly motivated to do everything right.

And he relates behavior to your dopamine state, which is fine. It's good. The issue is, is that. We don't really know for sure whether this is absolutely true because you can't actually measure dopamine in the brain. You can correlate bay behaviors, psychology research, and, and look at animal research and sort of try to match these.

And maybe all of these things are true, but are they a thousand percent like absolutely.

[00:41:30] David Syvertsen: Real quick there, w w when he talks about, in this episode about different things that spike dopamine, he talks about chocolate, I think one and a half times sex, two times amphetamines, are those numbers subject they're

[00:41:42] Sam Rhee: true in the sense of rats, right?

Probably, probably looking at not actual dopamine, but some sort of other, some marker of dopamine, like dopamine receptor, like you can't

[00:41:53] David Syvertsen: take a blood test and say your dopamine is at this level. You can't.

[00:41:56] Sam Rhee: Yeah. And there are correlates in ADHD, addiction, schizophrenia, like all of these.

And they've made a lot of progress in terms of developing drugs and, and other things to help with dopamine levels in the brain and, and correlating that to behavior. I think this is really useful for us to, to use as a system, to, to change our behavior. And it might all be true. We just don't know a hundred percent.

[00:42:19] David Syvertsen: Yeah. You're not saying it's not true. You just not saying scientifically you can't completely.

[00:42:23] Sam Rhee: Right. And and I don't mind using the popular slang. Like you get a dopamine hit from this or dopamine hit from that because it's sort of true and it makes it easier for other people to understand because, we all know when you say, I got a dopamine hit from looking at a post on Instagram.

Like what that sort of means. It means your behavior. Like you got your mood lifted. You, you feel a little bit better, yeah. Right, right. Exactly. You're feeling more motivated, but does it actually mean. Your dopamine actually really changed an appreciable level in your brain, right? Maybe right. But it could have been maybe not, maybe not.

It could have been a whole bunch of other transmitters, a very complicated mechanism probably, but that's okay. We don't have to talk about that. We can just I just wanted to say that. And just so people didn't sit here and think that, like, these are medical doctors who are using this, and that's why, if you talk to a medical doctor, they're going to be all wishy-washy about this stuff, because.

It's still pretty gray. So if you go to your doctor and say, Hey, listen, I'm doing this and my dopamine is so high, they're going to be like, okay. And they said that my dopamine is awesome. Like, no, but, but can you use this to really make your life better and change your behavior pattern?

Absolutely.

[00:43:35] David Syvertsen: Yeah. Yeah. So Ramzan when you first heard, I think, Adam will share podcasts with me a lot and sometimes I can get to them sometimes I can't and we'll kind of trade some back and forth and they're usually a little above my pay grade when it comes to intelligence level. But when you first heard that I wanted to kind of do an episode on this and I definitely wanted you to come on.

Like we waited to do this until you can come on. What were your initial thoughts?

[00:43:55] Adam Ramsden: So my background is, is psychology. So I went to school for psychology. And so when I hear these podcasts, I'm coming at it from a. Strictly anecdotal, like what can we hear from stories and experiences that we've had that can help us?

So that's where I could, the sort of dope mean immediately went into the, okay. I know how I feel when those things are happening. Perfect example, like last Wednesday's workout was a lot of dumbbell snatch, a lot of double unders, so forth taking the CrossFit path here. And somebody came in to seven, 15 class that is usually happy, like talks to everybody.

And he just came in and he was just like super tired, like, okay, cool. By the end of the workout. Happy smile talking to everybody like giving high fives, fist bumps. It was just like the perfect example of, okay, this is what exercise can do to do that dopamine hit. So that's what I'm thinking when I see, these episodes when I listened to these podcasts, that's where I come from.

The avenue

[00:45:01] David Syvertsen: I take. Cool. I like that. And what, we're definitely going to tie 95% of this to CrossFit because that's what this, this podcast really centers around, or I should say fitness in general exercise lifestyle. And I do want to say, I just want to give a quick story that human gave from his own podcast, that there is some science behind it that is, factual and objective.

Right. A lot. We just said a lot of this is going to be subjective in our opinion, our, our take on it and how we can tie this to CrossFit. But he had a stomach virus called Giardia, which I guess he was just talking about how, how gnarly it is. Severe dehydration had to go to the hospital and had to have an IV put in him.

Right. And. Within moments of that, getting that Ivy. Kay. Because they had to, they tried to fill his stomach with something. Right. And he started having this like overwhelming sense of depression, sadness. He was crying for no reason. And he asked and because of his background, he knew that once he heard, he asked what they put in them and he said, Thorazine was the one.

And Sam just told me, that's, I nasty,

[00:46:02] Sam Rhee: nasty. I rarely use it anymore. We used to use it a lot. They used to use it for nausea a lot, I guess they gave it to him for nausea problem. Yeah.

[00:46:09] David Syvertsen: And so all of a sudden, so he asked the doctors, so what'd you give me Thorazine? And he immediately, he knew that it's it blocks dopamine receptors.

It's an anti-psychotic drug. And so that he asked for L-DOPA right. Imagine being at the hospital and be like, yo doctor give me that. As like his background allowed him to do that. And you could probably do that to Sam. If you went to the hospital, you would have a full understanding of what they're putting into.

[00:46:29] Sam Rhee: Maybe, yeah, I'm a plastic surgeon, so it's been a while, but

[00:46:33] David Syvertsen: I might stronger than most. Like, I remember when Ashley was at the hospital, she she had a rough go for, for her birth and they were putting things in her. And like, I just remember watching her and like, she was like a ghost for like 12 hours.

I was like, holy cow, what are they putting in her? And, I don't have any sort of background to ask, like, what are they, they told me what they are. I was like, okay, cool. Like, I'm like Googling it middle of the hospital. But he asked for L-DOPA and they said within moments, he was back to normal.

He went from severe depression to completely like normal and fine. And it was, it was something that blocked dopamine receptors, receptors, and now they were, those receptors are no longer blocked. And it had that kind of immediate impact, like literally went from a peak to a valley in the, at the snap of a finger.

So I just, I want to throw that in there before we talk about. You know how this, how CrossFit and how all these layers of CrossFit can, can tie to our psychological state and our behaviors, and then, which really does fuel our motivation here, our consistency here, and what we're actually pursuing.

And because I think that that in time changes for a lot of people, right. So why do I want to relate this to CrossFit? Okay. It talks about that in terms of like, why we want to help people avoid getting to that burnout stage. I want everyone to think back to when you started CrossFit, like your, your first few times coming in you didn't hit your pride and have nanos or Metcons right.

You just came in in workout clothes. You didn't have a favorite pull-up bar. You didn't have a, a history to look back on. You didn't have good experiences and bad experiences yet you were just coming in to exercise and try something new and over time, after a year after two years, after three years, you start kind of leaning towards certain kinds of workouts or coaches, or now at bison art, your certain zones, your pull-up bars.

Like I still, to this day I get requests that I want a specific pullet bar. I want a specific box that was never a thing early on because most of us never had just real quick as coaches and as athletes, if you want to give you kind of just some memories on when you guys started CrossFit, the difference between now when you come to the gym and back then, just in terms of like your experiences and what you're actually pursuing, when you come in, like, what were you pursuing Adam when you came to cross it?

[00:48:38] Adam Ramsden: You had said that when you first When you're doing the history of CrossFit, bison episode that I came from, high-intensity training that wasn't CrossFit. Right. So when we came here, we had kind of an idea of what it was like. So I'm thinking back when we first started this group fitness thing.

And I remember in Hoboken, when I would go to the gym, when there would be a specific class, I'd go 10 minutes early and I'd go stand outside. There was like, those big glass doors and windows and stuff like that in the mirrors. And I'd look who was going to go into class and I kind of stand back and hang out by the water fountain and I'd say, okay, he's going in?

Okay. Classes fun when he's like, let me go. And now, I'll go, if not, if I don't see the people that I want to work out with fine, I'll just do my bicep curls and I'll go, so that's, that was my mindset of. The other people there immediately, wasn't like, what are we doing in the workout?

Because we never knew, but it was the group of people that I was looking for.

[00:49:34] David Syvertsen: Okay. Sam,

[00:49:35] Sam Rhee: when I first started, I was a true novice. So I didn't really know a whole lot about fit like fitness or exercising or any of it. And I think my motivation at the time now I'm thinking back at it, as I was listening to Adam was, was watching others and seeing how, how good they were at what they were doing.

And I said, I want to do that. I want to be able to do that. It was really about. Just striving to be better and to emulate those that I saw at the gym. That was really my main motivation for, for months and months. And even now just still, like, that's probably what drives me a lot.

[00:50:14] David Syvertsen: Cool. So like, so like, and that, that desire.

So to compare those two, right, Sam's was a little bit more of a. All right. I want to be able to do that someday. Adam was more about in those early days at that other gym, more about like, alright that person's going to show up, but basically there was something fueling your desire to go into the gym.

Right. And at some point, and I think a lot of people, when they start CrossFit, is, is there a blend of those two? They want to be around the right people, but they also want to get better at stuff. Right. It doesn't, it's not always about an aesthetic. It could be for some, but it's more like, I want to, like, I remember when Dan Kodo, when we had him on, after the quarter finals, he was like, I wanna be able to do butterfly.

Pull-ups like he saw someone do it. And that kind of fueled him right in time. We start being capable of doing that in time. We start making friends that we get to work out with all the time and. Why D so that that's, at some point it becomes not as attractive anymore or, or we get to that peak already, and now we're no longer striving for that.

And I think my question is, why do we lose the enjoyment? Why do we lose? What happens generally speaking to someone that comes in and is purely fueled by watching someone else do something on purely fueled by being with the people, what was yours? Man, I'm trying to think back. I mean, my mind was similar in that.

I just wanted to feel like I was achieving something that was really hard that I couldn't do. Like I got to the gym, like I can't do that. I'm I want to get there. And then I remember watching my first ever competition. That's when I fell in love with the sport. Right. Like I think I fell in love with the sport.

As quickly as I fell in love with the fitness regimen, the competing yeah. The competing and yeah, I watched a competition my second month and watched the entire thing by myself. Didn't know anyone there. And I was like, all right, I want to do that. And it, same thing, watched others do something and said, Hey, if I work hard, maybe I can do that too.

Right. And maybe that is something that like, I haven't lost my fire for cross it because I'm always looking at someone better than me. It's like, I want to do that someday. That might be why I am, but not everyone's wired like that. I would say most people are not wired like that.

They don't really care about a competing. They just want to come and be healthy. So why, why do you think people lose that enjoyment of pursuing, the people? Why do or are they too dependent on that? Did they get to the point where I only need that person? Right? You said you would leave the gym, have certain person come in.

Is that something that you think could happen at across at where like, Hey, my buddies aren't here, I'm out.

[00:52:37] Adam Ramsden: I think it's something you can. Kind of desensitize yourself too. Right? So it's like, if you were constantly coming in same group of people, you don't get that same high that you do the first couple of times, it's slowly decent-sized desensitizes it to you.

Right. So I do think that, that we need to constantly be updating what our motivating factors are, what our goals are always thinking about, what we can do and how we can move forward. It's something to check in on as we continue, when we start to feel that, oh, I'm not as excited to go everyday as I used

[00:53:15] Sam Rhee: to be.

Right. Yeah. I think it, ideally if we were perfect human beings, we would be able to cross. By ourselves in a little room without anyone around, without any music and not seeing anything, but that would require a tremendous amount of motivation that person's dopamine level in general would be through the roof because you would need that kind of motivation to be able to do that every day to truly work hard by yourself alone.

For most of us we find our own things that motivate us to come in for a lot of people. It's the group, it might be a coach, it might be other things. And the people who I think, and I've talked to the OG people, there's a lot of and we'll probably talk about internal motivation when it comes to it.

They also, but they also need external motivation. Otherwise, there's only so much you can do all alone by yourself. And so having the people around you, having other things that help motivate you, that helps raise your dopamine state. Then you have an I'm sure we'll talk about it, requiring more and more of these factors in order to entice us into working out.

Right. And that's where you have to talk to people and figure out what is it that is truly elevating their dopamine state. And can you maintain that over a long period of time? Yeah. So I think that that's where this is super relevant is finding out what is motivational for you and what do you need to be able to say, sustain this for a really

[00:54:46] David Syvertsen: long time?

Yeah. So like, and that's like the perfect transition into kind of what do CrossFitters do despite their own dopamine, because initially you didn't really need it. Right. You came in because you want to do what others, others were doing. Say Adam wanted to be around the right people. And I'm sure there's obviously other factors as well.

Right. But that was kind of like one of the main things, right? Like he would literally leave the gym if someone was not there, Maybe we would let leave the gym or not work as hard if there weren't people around you. That couldn't do things that were, above your means at the moment.

All right. But at some point you can start doing that at some point, you do have all the people that you want to work without I'm out all the time. And like Adam said, eventually it gets dulled. Well, it's no longer good

[00:55:25] Sam Rhee: enough. Right? Right. Because what happens is, is I started learning how to do power cleans.

And I was like, oh my God, I can do 95 pound power clean right now I can do 1 35. And now it's like, what's next?

[00:55:35] David Syvertsen: And it's like, it loses its luster after awhile,

[00:55:37] Sam Rhee: after awhile, you plateau in terms of what you're learning. And then you're like, okay, what's next?

[00:55:41] David Syvertsen: Yep, exactly. So this is where people start trying to spike their dopamine via out other sources.

And this is what a human called is layering. It's like, all right, this is no longer good enough. And this is where pre-workout routines come in for a lot of people. Right. Or not anti routine, but let's talk about pre-workout supplements, right? Where I take them. And this is where, Adam could use the word addiction.

I want to get Adam's thoughts on this. Let's use me an example was I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. All right. So if I know I have like a hard workout coming up. I want this like an hour before of like my quiet alone time. That's, not few and far between now because of not having a kid.

But, and I want to have my pre-workout drink. I actually don't even think it helps me work out, but it's my mental state. It's like I need. And if, honestly, if I ever show up to the gym without it, before I immensely just not there, I think it's going to have a negative impact. It won't, deep down.

I know it won't, but mentally. It starts to spite that dopamine. And it makes me feel like, all right, I'm in that, I'm in it now. Right. And we, we can make the argument that yes, the caffeine caffeine is not necessarily bad for you, but there's other things in our pre-workout supplements that could cause you know, some addictive natures.

And it's more about that behavior that like, I really feel like I'm in my workout now because I'm taking this pre-workout and I know a lot of people in the gym take it too, that I hear them talk about it. They come in with that. Can, right before the workout, they feel it gets action. So I never used to do that.

And now it's like, I need this to work out and that's just like one layer and I could have a few different layers as well. Thoughts on that, Adam, like a pre-workout supplement and that first layer of someone that uses despite their dopamine. Yeah.

[00:57:15] Adam Ramsden: Obviously the, the supplements I, and we have to, I think immediately divide, use and abuse.

Right? If you use supplements, I think it's fine. I take protein, there's a lot of different things, creatine that you can take at, and they're not inherently bad. The problem is, is when you say, oh, I need this every day to work out. I need the music and if the music's not right today, then I'm going to have a bad workout and I'm not going to be happy with my score on the whiteboard and I'm going to go, and I'm going to get that really deep, low afterward and say, oh, if only I had my right pull-up bar, or if only I didn't forget my niece leaves, I could have done so much better today.

And so I don't think it's a problem with anything in particular, if you have a routine, that's fine. I think you need to be able to say, okay, Today's a really hard workout day. I need my hour. I need my pre-workout tomorrow. I'm not going to do any of that stuff. And I'm going to go in and I'm still going to work out.

It might not be, I might not have that same high that I got today, but I need to be able to pull that back and keep that under control before it becomes an addictive, behavior.

[00:58:23] Sam Rhee: I think caffeine is tricky because your body definitely becomes habituated to it. If you're a coffee drinker.

And you don't get your coffee, you will get headaches. You will feel like crap and your body gets used to it. And like you said, it may not, it may no longer help you from a physical standpoint because your body is just used to it. You, if you drink, if you've never drank coffee and you drink, two cups bouncing off the wall, right.

But if you drink three, four or five cups a day regularly, that won't even touch you, you won't even feel it. So you're right. A lot of times it's about the mental state. I personally save any kind of pre-workout for. The open comms, like something like that. I respect that. Yeah. I never take it before any workout, even though I used to write, I used to take C4.

I used to throw it into my drink and I just felt it was I didn't like that feeling and I hate being, feeling addicted to something and out of control and like, like I have to have it. So I said, no, I'm not going to do that. Okay. I feel. Anything that I need to force myself to like, to, that I need to come in.

I should, I should want to come in regardless. And it's hard, like you said, like if you, like I'll, we were just talking about it, you look at the workout and you're like, that's not a good workout. I you're in a low dopamine state and you're like, ah, that's not good. I'm not going to come in. I'll skip, I'll make it a rest day.

And I'll come in tomorrow when we're doing hang power cleans. And then I'll get my dopamine hit from looking at them and be like, yay. That's what I want to do. If, if I feel like I need pre-workout I don't want, I don't

[01:00:01] David Syvertsen: want to take it. Cool. Yeah. And that's so like, that's, that's one layer of spiking dopamine for your workout, because it's no longer good enough to come in and try to do what others are doing.

It's no longer to come in and just be around the right people. So you have a fun workout. Another thing I think people do despite dopamine is that post-workout cheat meal slash reward, right? Where, if I do this workout, I can go, eat terrible tonight or I can go have that drink. And that's another layer of dopamine that, we don't need to spend as much time on this one, but it's another way of, kind of looking past what you're actually doing at the gym for fitness, for health.

It's your only kind of, you're kind of removing yourself from the. And trying to spike that dopamine by thinking about that piece of cake, that pizza, that burrito from blue moon postcomm all right. Or that, those drinks, thoughts on that real quick just like what, what people do post-workout and how that kind of spikes that, or it's a pursuit of spike in dopamine.

[01:00:54] Adam Ramsden: Yeah. I mean, if we go back to the story of it, feeling that high after the workout, you're going to get that low directly afterwards. So it's like, okay, well what, what can I do in the future? That's going to make that loan not so bad. What's the reward that I'm going to give myself so that I don't get, upset after this after this really high, high that I'm going to get, because I've stacked all these behaviors.

So I think we, we need to try and pull that baseline down and think about ways that we can do that by making things, less. Based on those motivation of rewards,

[01:01:28] Sam Rhee: external rewards, you keep stacking them and that's going to make it harder and harder. If I don't go to the gym, unless I'm like, all right.

If I go to the gym today, I will get my double caramel macchiato afterwards. So I will go to the gym. Well, what happens when you don't get your double caramel macchiato or you do, are you not going to go to the gym because you're in a low dopamine state? And the only way you can force yourself is with this external reward.

That is a very unreliable way of maintaining discipline and progress in terms of your fitness.

[01:01:59] David Syvertsen: Yeah, really important thing that Adam brought up and I think everyone needs to know this when your dopamine gets hit, does get it hit a spike. It's going to come down. So there is going to be a crash. Like if you can try to picture this like baseline dopamine level, like your just normal resting state, right?

If you spike it via workout spike at via your post-workout cheat meal, the, the level of spike above your baseline is how far down below your baseline you'll become at some point. So there's highs and lows and like. And have been through it with people that compete. Right. We just had a lot of people compete last weekend.

We have a lot of people competing next weekend. If this is so common that there's something that you work really hard for. You get to that high of the competition, you love it, you crush it. You do well. When not, no, not even matter what place you come in. Like you, you hit that spike. And I see this all the time.

There's like that week or two after sometimes it's two weeks after that low after is really hard for people to deal with. I see it after the open a lot after quarter finals, people hit this. Like, it's almost like it's a state of depression. And I think that it's something to be very mindful that if you're layering all these different levels of dopamine spikes and you're just trying to get higher and higher and higher, you're going to crash lower and lower and lower.

So I think that's something that really be mindful of in terms of what you do. Post-workout that spikes your dopamine, right? That if you're going to further spike it, because you need something even more, right. Just be prepared for the fact that you're gonna come down even lower.

[01:03:15] Adam Ramsden: And I mean, how many times it's almost a daily occurrence.

Get through the workout afterwards, everybody's high fives and then an hour later, you're like, I could have gone faster, better. I could've gotten one more round, if we can, if we can attribute that to, maybe it's not something that's happening neurologically in the brain. But maybe it's just something that we have to be prepared for on a daily basis, or when we get those super highs of the competition, stuff like that, there's going to be that drop after.

Absolutely.

[01:03:43] David Syvertsen: So I have three left music and slash playlists. All right. I mean, this is something that we can laugh about as coaches, because you just, you're never going to make everyone happy about the music in your room, but especially with big classes, but I think that's another huge thing.

I try. I've tried to do this subconsciously before we even heard this podcast. Like I try not to listen to the same music. I do have an addictive personality and I have in the past, I remember going to like back of my days in New York sports club lifting, and I would literally listen to the same song, like 19 times in a row, the entire workout.

And like, that's a, that's a bad trait, now that I'm learning that right. But I try to listen to all different genres of music. And it sounds funny. It's like day, this is getting a little too specific, but I actually think like, I don't want to always have like the pump up, my, my kind of music that I really want.

I'll listen to some quiet stuff, soft stuff or stuff that I normally don't listen to outside of the gym. And I, because it's, I don't want to be reliant on that. And I know there are some people that are reliant on a specific general music or a certain song when they're lifting. Which if you think about it is ridiculous, right?

Like you need a specific song too. But I also think that the more you listen to that genre, it actually becomes less. Right. Like, I know there are certain songs that Ramzan likes when he lifts. Right. And like, if I, once every six weeks throw it on there, if he's in one of my classes, like it helps. But if it's every single time, it's, he's going to need something else despite that.

So it mean thoughts on that because Adam, you're a music guy.

[01:05:07] Adam Ramsden: Yeah. I think that. Avoiding routine is, is the key, right? Don't say, oh, I need this every day to, to get my best workout. Cause every day is not going to be your best workout. So it's better to be able to consciously say, you know what, today I'm not going to do this thing.

I was really looking forward to and I'll do it tomorrow. I'll push it off till later in the week, if there's, butterfly pull-ups in the workout and I crushed butterfly pull-ups I've been looking forward to this all week, maybe. You just change it to strict pull-ups right.

Just once and then, ju just to kind of keep those levels in check,

[01:05:45] Sam Rhee: If I'm really in a workout, I don't remember what the music is, which means if I'm listening to the music. I, I usually notice at the beginning, at the beginning of the workout and then maybe at the end, but you literally could play almost anything in the middle when I'm suffering.

And I probably won't remember what it is. And, and if that's the case, then I'm probably in the right mindset would agree, completely agree. When I make up my music for my classes, I, I try to mix it up, but I mean, most people know, I like sort of dance-y clubby stuff and people make fun of me for it.

Like CJ the other day was like, are we at a club? And, and then someone's like, what sounds good? What are you talking about? And then, yeah. And so if, but I know if somebody's noticing what the music is, they're relying on an external factor to get them going, right. And so if you need your death metal, if you need your upbeat pop or whatever it is, right.

You're not really in it, in the workout the way you ought to be in the workout. And I see that most commonly with Murph, when people have to do the mile runs, they'll put the headphones on, they'll bring their ear phones and they'll run with it. And I'm like, just. I forced them. I used to do that too.

Like I listen, it makes it easier to make that, that mile run quicker. If you, if you have that external reward of that music you like and your ear, but I have also tried very hard not to use it. And, and if have you ever worked out in complete silence also really weird and interesting if you've ever done that, sometimes I'll do that at home or something just to, just to mix it, like, like Adam says, you just break up the routine.

Yeah.

[01:07:26] David Syvertsen: It's funny. Like you guys both, like, it's like, there's a subconscious that you guys know, like don't avoid doing the same thing every time. And like, yes, you're not probably thinking about your dopamine while you do that, but it does. It makes you kind of value what you're actually doing within the workout more.

And pre-workout music roared after like all these things. I think we could start to see where, where people do this, like I see it all the time with like, when we're. The Tuesday Fridays when I'm here between eight and nine 30, there's no classes. So the next level people come in that can and do their, a lot of their work.

I always have music on in the background. It's, it's usually a playlist. I don't have to pay attention to like, whether it's one of your playlists that you've made or the big booty bit it mixes. Right. And they all put their own. A lot of them put their own headphones, headphones in and it's like, it's another thing.

Are you relying on that to do your work? And it's you do do it every single time. I think that's a really good

[01:08:13] Adam Ramsden: point. And I think it's, it's something where yes, like maybe it at first it's, oh, I need it for the mile for Murph. Cause that's a really long run, and then that bleeds into, oh, it's an 800 meter run, 400 meter run.

That's that's pretty long, pop the headphones in. Yeah. I always think back to when I first started coaching Adam storms told me like, sometimes it's just good to at the end of the night, turn the lights off, do your workout, silence, black gym. So I did DT in the dark, no music that's sick.

And it was. It was weird, but it was also like, okay, I don't need the music. Th these external factors in these motivators are good. And I can always, I always enjoy the workout more when I, when there's music and there's other people around, but you don't need it. If you can get that internal motivation of just I'm going to get this high from this workout, cause this exercise does spike my dopamine, then you know, that's all we need, and try and push out those external factors.

Yeah,

[01:09:12] David Syvertsen: that's really cool. And I think it's just the fact that you're conscious of it and you're disciplined in general, right? Like I think it's something that can really bring you to a higher level of enjoyment and fulfillment at the end of the day. That's really what this podcast is about. It's not us telling you what to do, what not to do.

It's like we want people to get more enjoyment out of. Right. And it's because we see a lot of people, they lose their loss after a while. And the fitness industry, I've always said this, like as a business owners. Oh, it's tough. Because the fitness industry is a fat industry. There's always something new to go try and I get it.

Trust me. CrossFit is unique in that stance, in my opinion, but I'm biased obviously. But even that it's not immune to the fact that, it gets old after, after a while. And I want to ask ourselves, why is it getting old? And the occasional, dark room, no music workout the workout where you're not cherry picking, which is coming up next.

Or in two topics from now the, that I think that's just something to be really mindful of. If you ever feel like you're starting to lose your, your kind of passion for it. All right. I have two left know, again, these are layers that people use to spite the dopamine because what they used to do was not good enough.

Now they need this, right? The next one's a big one. I see it all the time as people. And this is tough, right? This is going to sound almost counter to what we usually say. Like cross it, the community. It is all about the people. When we're here to work out, I don't think it needs to be all about your friends, your training partners, the favorite coach that you have.

Right. And I know for a fact there are people that will only go to a certain coaches class, especially if it's a certain kind of workout. I know for a fact they will, that people will only come to the gym. If there's certain someone, is there also training with the class. I know for a fact that there are people that get pissed when they're not near the person that they want to work out with and you can spin this as, oh, well, it's all about the people I want to be around my friends.

It's my hour. Right? Like, give me what. But I think when we do this it Quill and I'll go into why I think these are all negatives and what we can, why we want to avoid all these layers. That's going to be next, but it can really it's in time. It lessens the actual enjoyment of what you're doing here.

And remember when you started at cross at bison, you didn't really know anyone, either one of you, you didn't have this, like, I need this person, I need this coach. You're like, dude, I'm just going in because that's what my schedule says. Who's there is great. Who's you know, if this person's there, great. If not, it doesn't matter.

I'm still going. And just give me your quick thoughts on how the dangers of being reliant on a certain person being at the gym, whether it's an athlete or a coach can actually lessen your experience here in time.

[01:11:40] Adam Ramsden: I think that, I I'm guilty of this all the time is that, when I'm looking at a class and I'm saying, oh, am I going to go to four 15 or five 15?

I'll check them planner exactly. In the class. It still

[01:11:49] David Syvertsen: happens. We didn't have this. Right. You never knew you didn't

[01:11:52] Adam Ramsden: know. Yeah. And and thinking back even further to when we used to have. Show up on a Saturday class and you didn't know who's going to be in Saturday class, and then you saw somebody working, oh, maybe, maybe Dave will probably up with that person.

Or, maybe I should just text him and say, oh, me and this person are coming in on Saturday. Can we work out together? Yeah.

[01:12:09] David Syvertsen: Friday night, 9:45 PM is preferred on that.

[01:12:14] Adam Ramsden: Um, you know, So we're all guilty of it and it all happens and it happens subconsciously. So it's kind of just like, maybe some days you say, all right, I'm signing up.

I'm not even looking at who's in the class. I'm just going to reserve the spot and I'm going to go at this time. And you know that.

[01:12:30] Sam Rhee: Yeah. It's, I think that it was easier before to not use this as external motivators when we didn't know who was coaching. And I see it I've seen it a couple of times.

I've seen it when I've coached, started coaching on Wednesdays and someone show up in the like, Where's Dave. Yeah. Coaching. Oh, like you could see that dopamine go been just fall,

[01:12:50] David Syvertsen: but now it's the other way, right? Well,

[01:12:52] Sam Rhee: no, but and I, myself also am like, Adam is guilty of looking and saying, okay, who's that coach is that the motivating factor, like, right.

I've tried to take the guesswork out of it by saying, all right, this day is going to be my not work. Right. I'm going to work out on these days, regardless of who the coach is. Right. And and I also want to force myself to take classes from everyone. And some of that is because I'm a coach. And so I do better when I see a whole bunch of coaches.

It makes me a better coach. So that's my motivating factor, but it's really hard because it, listen, if we could work out by ourselves alone, that'd be awesome. But I, I literally have tried and COVID, I tried and I could for a little while, it's hard, but you can't forever work out by yourself and you see people who are injured or rehabbing and they work out by themselves.

They it's so hard for them. They, they are dying to come back into class as soon as they can, because, because you'll get that motivating factor. Right. The issue is, is how specific do you end up starting to make it, like, if you need to have your best, either with you not good. Right. And if you're looking at the whole class and being like, oh, I like these guys, these are good guys.

I'm going to work out with them. Now. Sometimes people will say, okay, oh, this person is good because they'll motivate me because we're sorted the same, I'll, I'll like Scott Sweeney, like I worked out with him the other day and a snatch workout and I didn't necessarily, I didn't choose the workout because he was in the class.

Right. But it did give me a little bit of a dopamine spike to be like, oh, Scott's right. And then he happened to be in the lane next to me. And I was like, nice. Like, yeah, that was, that, that helped me, but I wasn't looking for it. Right. And that didn't determine whether I was

[01:14:32] David Syvertsen: coming in or not. Yeah. And it's like, if you were, if you're not really aware of this, right.

Like that little spike in dopamine that you had from a working out in the same class as Scott and he was right behind you and you guys were both snatching the same way. Yeah. 1 35. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. But you know, that's maybe part of the reason why you like working out with them, you similar athletes, right?

Yeah. Now it's almost like now you want that, like, you have to be careful to not crave that next time. Like, oh, Scott's not next. Tuesday's wide. I'm not going to go right now. Like, that's where I think it's, there's nothing wrong with like, I like working out with Rams and you, I like, if I see you guys in class, like, yes, I'm pumped, but I'm not going to expect that next week.

Right. We have different schedules, right? Like we can't lie to each other up all the time. And I think that's as something to be aware of. Are you only going to a gym because someone's, so's being in there. All right. Occasionally, if that's going to help you get out of a rut, you're having a bad day. You want to be fine.

But if it's every day or you start getting pissed, when you're. In the class or you don't work hard when the person that's a problem. And I think that's just like, you need to be aware that like, you're, you were, you're trying to spike your dopamine. And honestly, a lot, I think a lot of us, you're not going through the day saying I'm trying to spike my dopamine right now, but it is like, I think there's something in your brain that's happening that could eventually lead to a burnout.

Right. What about if someone moves? What if I was someone? I was like, Hey, I want to work out with Nicole Rachleff or Ryan Rachleff every day. That's me. Like, I'm only going to go and work hard because they're there. And then they moved to Texas. What are you going to do? What happens? Yeah,

[01:15:55] Adam Ramsden: I think it, and it comes back to.

Reflection and thinking about these factors beforehand and saying, what am I getting into a routine where I need to do this class, or I need to take this coach's classes every time. And if you're seeing yourself being pulled in one direction or not try to pull yourself back, right. Just try to keep it in check.

Okay. Now I'm going to try to do something that. In that avenue of, of things that I'm really looking forward to where I'm leaning on towards, when I used to use nice leaves, whenever I squatted at the beginning. And then it was like, oh, there's a lot of wall balls in this workout. Let me use my knee sleeves.

And then it became knee sleeves for air squats or running. And at one point, I was just like, you know what? I gotta take the knee sleeves off. Even when I'm squatting, maybe I can't squat as much. Maybe I don't feel as safe squatting. So I got to bring the weight down and maybe I'm not going to get that dopamine spike from getting that weight on the whiteboard.

It's a really good, but you know what, I'm not leaning on the, what's becoming a crutch.

[01:16:57] David Syvertsen: It's a great point. Like, I didn't even think about that, but like I'm a big on the knee sleeve, and like I can come up with a million reasons why, but it's, it's pro there is a, it's like a routine and addiction to that when I squat and it's, I've noticed.

That anything it's turned away from just a heavy day to wobbles high volume. I want to go fast today. Right? It does get tough. If you're really pursuing performance and competing, that's like, Hey, I'll do anything that will help me perform better. That's legal. And, but I do think that even like on a normal Cindy type workout where it's air squats, like you don't freaking need them.

Right. Like in the, it's a good, but it takes discipline. Like Adam's a pretty disciplined dude in general. And I think it kind of translates to that. Any thoughts there, Sam?

[01:17:39] Sam Rhee: Yeah. We all have our crutches. I mean, I, I think of them as pacifiers. I do the same thing with my wrist taping. Right. I, I did it when I had some tendonitis before it's better.

Anything like, even with the pushups, like the pushup work, I was like, do I need my wrist tape? And I was like, you don't really need it, but yeah. I'll put it on anyway. So I, I have to wean myself off of that. There are certain things I think I really do need it for heavy, overhead stuff like

[01:18:04] David Syvertsen: that.

I'm a part of, it's just like physical protection,

[01:18:06] Sam Rhee: but you know, some for the things I really don't need it for. I mean, do I need it for rowing? I don't think so. Why am I putting it on? Right. Like I really need to figure out what I really need and what I don't need and get rid of those crutches.

Yeah. That's part

[01:18:20] David Syvertsen: of, let me call them layers too. Like, that's like the word I want to keep saying, I'm going to tie this up with one last one. It's just like, it's just an, it could be another just layer of that dopamine spike. Right. And like it used to never have to do. Right. And it's like, what's next?

Like this is going to keep, if you continue to do cross in front of there five, six years, and you're on layer number nine right now, like, and five, six years from now on line number 16, like how, at what point do we acknowledge this is not right. My last one is probably the biggest one. Save the best for last it's cherry picking workouts.

Right? Like we could probably do an entire episode on why not to do it, but maybe we will someday, but this is a huge one. Now that we set, this is another thing that we never used to do either. We send the programming out a week ahead of time. And I still, like, I still wrestle with it in my head. Like sometimes I want to say like, the reason I justify it now is I know people need certain pieces of equipment for certain days.

Right. Or they just want to protect their bodies. Right. I do want to, at some point, get away from setting the programming at a week at a time. I really do. I think it's better for people physically, if they're here for fitness, right. If you have like very specific goals then. Yeah. I think you need to have some proper planning, but if you're here for fitness, health, wellness, you shouldn't need to know the workout at a time before we published the

[01:19:27] Sam Rhee: workouts, were there people that would show up and then just like leave after they saw the whiteboard?

Like, if it was like, 10 minutes burpees for time or something

[01:19:34] David Syvertsen: like that? I don't think so. I mean, they'd bitch about the workout,

[01:19:37] Adam Ramsden: but he used to be on the website. Right. And you used to put it on like 10:00 PM the night before everybody used to open their phones at 10:00 PM. Like I'm spreading the internet still works because everybody wanted to know what the workout was next yesterday.

So

[01:19:49] David Syvertsen: like the old, old school cross, it was, you did not know the workout till you got to the gym. Okay. But now, like for years it was we'd post it. And like, I used to do it inconsistent. I didn't have like a specific time. It was somewhere between like eight and 10 that bug me. Yeah. I know because you guys would press refresh on your phone or this, like just wake up and see it.

It's not a big deal, but you have to think about your workout when you go to bed. Right. I think that now that people really know the whole week ahead of time, it makes them cherry pick more. Because a lot of times, if you don't know the workout until the night before, like you kind of already made your mind up for the most part, that you're going to the gym, but now that you see the workouts on Saturday for the next seven days, I'm taking off Tuesday taking off ones.

I hate squats. So I'm going to come in on Friday because I hate that Thursday workout. Yup. And I think that is a direct correlation to the dump because if you start doing CRO, if you're doing CrossFit for a few years, there are certain kinds of workouts. Right. Like this week right now, when we re I think we'll be releasing this for tomorrow.

I can, I know the Jim's gonna like Monday SWAT. It's just,

[01:20:47] Sam Rhee: I saw that. And I was like, that's usually my rest day. And I was like, do I want to just come in? And the next day, my breast,

[01:20:53] David Syvertsen: I did exactly the same thing. Yeah. And I know that Tuesday is not going to be fun for a lot of people. Tuesday is every six minutes do 20 back squats and do a runner recovery row.

Exactly. And like, Hey, that's not fun. I'll quote my ass. My wife asked me last week when we talked, she asked me what the Thursday waters. It was the three by 15 back squat day with like some accessory type work prior to short Tovar lunges. And she was like boring, like she just, but she went and like, I know that there are days that are more fun.

You can't just do fun wise all the time. In my opinion, that was one of the lightest attended days last week. For sure. I mean, Thursdays usually are, but that one I think was even less attendance because of the workout. So I just like, if anyone doesn't really believe me just watching the attendance Monday, Tuesday at the gym, Monday is a fun walk.

Tuesday's not, and I think some people mistake fun wads for better workout. Why? Because the dopamine spike, the feeling that you get right. Monday, it's going to feel like it's happy hour after the workout, people are going to be on fire, smiling high five sweaty. Right. And I'm like, oh man, that was kind of sucky.

See you tomorrow. All right. Thoughts on that cherry picking?

[01:21:59] Adam Ramsden: I mean, We're always talking about the 50, 50 relationship between the coach, coach and the athlete. And I think that, whether you put out the workout the night before, or whether you give a full weeks of programming, it's on the athlete to say, these are the days I'm going to go in.

It doesn't matter what the workout is. Let me adjust my perceived intensity of what I'm focusing on. Is this going to be a competitive workout? Is it going to be a training workout? Is it going to be a workout to practice a movement that I really stink at? That, that falls on the athlete and we can.

Give people the motivation for the 20 by the three by 20 back squat day, we can't give people the motivation of, yes, this is a workout that, you're really gonna struggle at, but you should be here anyway, because you need to be here to work on your weaknesses. So I think at some point that just has to become an internal motivation that you kind of just have to say, it's not what I want to do, but I'm going to do it anyway.

[01:22:54] Sam Rhee: I mean, I'm listening to us and I feel like we're really, harshing a lot of people's mellow. They're like, I just want to come in and have fun. And why are you making me feel guilty for going to the fun workout and, and skipping the not fun workout I'm coming in, like for the fun ones. And if you just made it more fun, I come in more and I get that.

Listen, none of us are games, athletes, except for you maybe. And so for us, non-sports side of things and we're just recreational. You can take some of these things with a grain of salt, like

[01:23:29] David Syvertsen: absolutely. But I'll, I'll step in and say, when I see people that reach a low at some point, because they're not making progress, they feel like they're like, Ugh, like why do I get so tired of wobbles?

Like, why can't I do Fran, I'm broken. Why can't I do well in the squat workout on 23.3? And that's why. I feel like I'm drawing parallels to myself as a coach. Now I could say I'm a father of two years now, right? There are things that a coach or someone that's programming we do from the macro level, from the Birdseye we do know what's best for you in the CrossFit sense.

I'm not going to talk about your personality, your life. And I do in the reason I talk about like, this is not to say like, yeah, screw the fun. You were only here to work. Right. Like I probably come across that way. Right. Like, cause I like to work. I like to work hard. I like to, train and all that stuff.

But I also, I like the fun side. It's one thing I miss that I missed out on with like the way I train. Like I know I miss out on a lot of the fun stuff and I miss it. Trust me When I say, the four it's four by 20 on Tuesdays, four sets of 20 back squats, right? Yeah. Every six minutes. I know it's if you get there and you were here by three by 15, and you were here for the back squats prior to, it's going to help you out with next Thursday's workout, man.

Right. And like, I know it's going to help build legs, stamina. Like I see it all the time. People are really sh and they're really fit, but their leg stamina is just not there. And it could be as simple as a wall ball. It could be air squat workout. I also know what's, what's the biggest, the biggest struggle of a four by 20 back squat time under tension.

That's a huge issue for CrossFitters because we're so used to doing like little sets, go into next week, little sets next to a movement. And I think that there's parallels to, fitness, but also performance that if you come in on that day, I know it's going to be better for you than you think. But I also know it's not going to create this dopamine spike that you're just going to be on this high, but we want to avoid doing that all the time.

Right? Like I just want to come in and have fun. I'll tell you what, in my opinion is the person that gets burned out.

[01:25:15] Sam Rhee: I think the people who really are consistent have a lot of internal motivation, correct. For whatever reason. And you're right. You're speaking to the people to try to help the ones who need all these external factors, because their internal motivation maybe isn't as, as good as they would want it to be.

Right. But I look at that Monday and I'm like six deadlifts at 180 5 and three power cleans went, oh man, let's go, dude. Like I can do that. I can do three power

[01:25:42] David Syvertsen: cleans. No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just don't. I just don't think that's gotta be like the, like the every week. Like if you did this every week, And said like, Hey, I'm going to go pick that fun wad, but I'm not going to do the one that I need more work on.

If that's a problem, if it's this week, like we're not going to criticize you for that. I'm not going to criticize anyone that comes in Monday that doesn't come Tuesday, not one person. But I think if it's something just, you should internally track, if you're doing that all the time, cherry picking every single week, I think it's a problem.

And you'll secretly judge them. Yes, secretly.

[01:26:12] Adam Ramsden: And I think it's important to realize that there's going to be motivational factors in every class you go to, because there's going to be people here working hard. Right. And that should be your motivation factor. Even if the workouts thinks for you, if you're resting at some point and you're in a class of eight, there's going to be somebody not resting.

So you better get back to work. Yeah. So it's just trying to pull back from those things. We feel we need. And trying to find other things just to break up the routine. So it doesn't get addicted. I tell

[01:26:40] Sam Rhee: people that just coming in is a reward in it of itself, for sure. And I say, you got to give yourself credit for showing up, regardless of whether you do well or poorly, like you have to give yourself credit.

And if you show up for the stuff, you're not doing well on and you need it. Even if it's not the, it doesn't give you that external dopamine hit you, give yourself that hit, like to just tell yourself how much that's going to pay off in the future. So all

[01:27:05] David Syvertsen: these layers that we talked about, even just to build off that a little bit more is.

This can actually lessen your enjoyment of cross it. If you're constantly trying to get all this, if it's cherry picking, it's the people, the coach, the music, the pre-workout post-workout reward. If you find yourself doing this, it is, it's like a short-term greed, almost like you're just trying to fill that moment.

And eventually it just doesn't work, right. Or you're just going to need even more and more layers. And that's really like the primary reason behind not cherry picking a workout or just like throwing all these layers into it is I actually do think it's going to less than your enjoyment. And it comes back to the first thing we talked about, why are we doing this podcast?

If you start to really not enjoy coming here and you just have negative thoughts every single time you're going to quit at some point. Like, why wouldn't you, and I think that's just something that, be really conscious of. And the last part I'll say in terms of, and then we can kind of go into where we go from here.

Is if you're only result oriented, that's like another sign that you're kind of approaching, the dangerous level of being burned out. And I'll say this, this happens to everybody, us included, we can is at some point you're not going to be hitting new PRS or the PRS has come really far and few between.

And if that result was the only thing you were pursuing or looking a certain way, right. Was the only thing you were pursuing for a long time. And then as biology starts to take over a little bit, you don't have the same capacity, the same lean muscle mass, right? On the same aerobic capacity VO, two drops at there, the age of 35 for men, right?

Like that's the science that's going to happen. Right. I think the way to combat that is to be process-oriented is like in the middle of a workout in the middle of a workout that you maybe not enjoy or don't enjoy the struggle point of the workout is just be conscious of in that moment. That's what you're trying to pursue is that actual process.

It's not only the result. And I think it's going to lead to a lot of like fillment motivation and happiness with

[01:29:00] Adam Ramsden: this stuff. Yeah. I think, always being conscious of short-term and long-term goals and yeah. Enjoying the, the work that you do every day, enjoying the people that you're around, no matter who's in the class.

Cause we're all good people here at the end, right?

[01:29:14] Sam Rhee: Absolutely try to be. Yeah. you're right. That intrinsic reward of enjoying the process is going to last you a lot longer than any of the extrinsic rewards that you might rely on. And you're right. If you said I'm doing this so I can make sure I hit my clean.

115 pounds, I've never hit 115 pounds. I've always have been at 95 or 1 0 5 and I'm doing this just so I can hit that goal. Well, what if you don't hit that goal then suddenly, or you plateau and you get stuck at 1 0 5, then how, how does that help your dopamine level? It really doesn't.

It, it, it drops it. So what you really need to do is say I enjoy the process of. Working on my cleans to get to one 15, whether I do or don't. I hope I do, but I, I need to take pleasure in the process of working on it, because I know I will be getting better. You can't not get better at something if you keep working.

And

[01:30:12] David Syvertsen: that, and there's other benefits of pursuing that. Like the muscle-ups a big one, right? Like I really want that muscle up. I really want that muscle up. And you do all this core work and pull up work and upper body strength, work and stability, work and technique. There's other benefits that come from it.

Like, it can't just be about the muscle, but if you really truly enjoy that process and you undertake the process and you really go after it, there's going to be other benefits that come that way. Like I've always wanted to compete at the CrossFit games and I've never been close. . But there have been other benefits that have come from that, that pursuing that goal.

That's been out of my reach. Right. It might still be out of my reach, but there's other benefits that come from it. And that's why it's like, I'm not only thinking about that result. Like I'm thinking about the process and like, Results will stem from that, that process. And I think that's like something that just having like that really narrow focus of like, I want to make quarterfinals, I want to podium at 9 0 8 next week.

It's not that it's wrong to pursue that, but if that's the only thing you're pursuing and that, that can eventually lead to that burnout. Like I know so many people in this gym that they used to come in here and get after it all the time, but you almost get sick of how hard it is, right. This shit is hard.

It's always going to be hard. I don't care who you across. It's always going to be a hard fitness program. And I think some people get so programmed to like that middle of the war that struggle the muscle burn, the, all the people going faster than me. Like I can't do this moving anymore. It just, it shuts them down so much because they're only thinking about the

[01:31:31] Adam Ramsden: result.

And if you celebrate the wins, there are wins every day. If you're getting stuck at that clean weight and it's not where you want to be, we'll think about. Oh, was that a really good rep? Oh, I couldn't have done that two weeks ago. I wouldn't have received the bar in the perfect position.

Like that's a win. Yeah. And we've got to celebrate those as much as we say, oh, I didn't get the weight I wanted to hit today.

[01:31:53] Sam Rhee: Yeah. That's a great point. You got to take those little things. And if you look at the OG guys, the ones that I always aspire to and I look at, they really truly enjoy the process of, of it.

They're not chasing a goal all the time. They, they are enjoying the small things, whatever you can take from it. None of these extrinsic factors are bad. It's whether you rely on them, correct repetitively, you should mix in some of these extrinsic factors. Sometimes, like the intermittent, random nature of it will help you.

If you don't depend on it, sometimes mix up the music sometimes, splurge afterwards. Do a comp to help yourself with get motivated, like absolutely do all these things. But at the end of the day, your longevity in CrossFit is going to stem from your pleasures that you take from yourself from the process

[01:32:42] David Syvertsen: itself.

Cool. So in conclusion, guys, just, I mean, any closing thoughts be appreciated, but also I want everyone to just kind of reflect on their interpretation of, what this podcast is. If you want to listen to the Huberman podcasts, I'll give you the episode number real. Before we ended up it's close to three hours, just so you know, it might take you a week to listen to it.

I want people to reflect on this stuff because I, the entire, like I said, at the beginning of the podcast, the entire time I listened to this and the more research and reading I've done about this, I tie it to everyone at this gym, myself included, wife included, you guys included, like I've seen both of you guys go through ups and downs and like, Hey, that's life, right.

You're never going to avoid that, but are there things that you can do at CrossFit before cross at, after cross it that can still keep you on that city line? Like, I think the true mark of a, to me, a responsible discipline person is the person that is net. They're not that high ever, and they're not, but they also avoid the lows.

They're just kind of like that same steady presence. Like those are the people that I think get the most out of cross it, because cross, it will naturally humble you, but also bring you to higher levels than other programs, in my opinion. All right. Just the way we do things, the way we track things, the way we kind of repeat things over the years and our yearly routine, monthly routines, I think it's unlike any other fitness program.

And, but you have to be mindful that you're not trying to get, the highest of the high all the time. Every time you come in here, because if you do, you're going to reach really low lows. So you kind of want to avoid those peaks and valleys, any closing thoughts?

[01:34:13] Sam Rhee: I think the most successful people that you see in CrossFit, even on the sports side are exactly those people.

They're not too high. They're not too low. Very true. They're, they're, they're, they're very steady in terms of their success progress and their effort. And I feel like that's a good model for me to model myself after.

[01:34:34] Adam Ramsden: Yeah. And I, I just think putting thought into it and reflecting on, okay. W did I feel like I did really good work today?

Good. Am I feeling that, oh, I could do better. All right. That's, that's a natural thing that's going to happen. Am I looking at my score and saying. I should have gone a little bit faster at the end. Cool. That's something to think about in the

[01:34:52] David Syvertsen: future. Yeah. And they make the change to yourself the next time.

So guys, this, if you want to kind of hear a little bit more about science and you have three hours who has three hours these days it's episode 39 of the Huber min lab. It's spelled H U B. Yeah. H U B E R M a N. Lab episode 39. It came out September 27th, 2021. So if anyone would kind of, wants to kind of feed off this a little bit more and get a little more scientific background on it.

It's a good listen. It's a heavy listen on Monday to listen to it a couple of times, but thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time