S05E161 - The Tragedy of Lazar Djukic and Its Impact on the State of CrossFit after the Games

The tragic passing of Lazar Djukic during the first event of the 2024 CrossFit Games has sent shockwaves through the community. Join coaches David Syvertsen @davesy85 and Sam Rhee @bergencosmetic as we navigate this emotional rollercoaster and reflect on the broader implications it holds for athletes, coaches, and event organizers alike. We emphasize the importance of open dialogues and understanding multiple perspectives, urging our listeners to consider the evolving nature of CrossFit as a sport and its safety measures without rushing to conclusions.

What does it mean to be accountable in the world of CrossFit? We explore this complex question by examining the shared responsibility between athletes, coaches, and event organizers when it comes to safety and performance. We delve into the tension between pushing limits and ensuring safety. Our discussion raises critical questions about whether preventive or reactive approaches are more prevalent and how we can find a balance between challenging workouts and potential dangers.

Finally, we tackle the public perception and controversies surrounding CrossFit, especially after such extreme incidents. From online critiques to personal anecdotes, we analyze how these views shape the image of CrossFit and discuss the need for better communication and transparency from leadership. We ponder the future of the CrossFit Games, debating whether drastic changes or greater community engagement from figures like Dave Castro could pave the way for positive transformation. Join us as we stress humility, accountability, and thoughtful responses to adversity as the keys to CrossFit's long-term growth and resilience.

@crossfitbison @crossfittraining @crossfit @crossfitgames #crossfit #sports #exercise #health #movement #crossfitcoach #agoq #clean #fitness #ItAllStartsHere #CrossFitOpen #CrossFit #CrossFitCommunity @CrossFitAffiliates #supportyourlocalbox #crossfitaffiliate

S05E161 - The Tragedy of Lazar Djukic and Its Impact on the State of CrossFit after the Games

TRANSCRIPT

David SyvertsenHost

00:05

Hey everybody, welcome to the Herd Fit Podcast with Dr Sam Rhee and myself, coach David Syverson. This podcast is aimed at helping anyone and everyone looking to enhance their healthy lifestyle through fitness, nutrition and, most importantly, mindset. All right, welcome back to the Herd Fit Podcast. I am Coach David Syerson. I'm here with my co-host, doctor and coach Sam Rhee, and today's topic is a little on the heavier side. We are going to address I would call it state of affiliates, our opinions, our views on what had happened the tragic death of Lazar Dukic games athlete day one, event one at the 2024 CrossFit Games in Fort Worth, texas, just a few weeks ago. Before we get into that, I just want to put it out there that there's a huge investigation going on that we don't have any inside access to and we shouldn't. We don't have most of the facts that surround the situation from a protocol, logistical and even medical perspective, but we are going to approach this subject from a response from two crossfit affiliate owners, two crossfit athletes, two crossfit games fans. Uh, sam and I are in sections and we do feel like it's important for us to discuss this as owners and parts of the community and we want to be very sensitive to the fact that our opinions are way down the list of importance in this entire situation. I wrestled back and forth with even talking about this on this podcast and then I really went back and did some self-reflecting on some of my own thoughts and emotions on this subject and I also feel that it is important for people from affiliates to have open conversations and listen and bounce ideas off of each other and listen and discuss and try to really look at this from a lot of different perspectives, because even in the games camp, the games group, there were so many different opinions from the athletes, the judges, the CrossFit staff and obviously, the community as a whole that I think that instead of just barking out what your opinions are and who's at fault, it's better to just listen and reflect.

02:30

And I want this podcast episode to be mainly coming from that perspective of hey, let's just throw some things on the wall from different perspectives and see if it can not necessarily change anyone's thoughts. That's not the goal of any podcast that we do. We don't want to change anyone's thoughts. That's not the goal of any podcast that we do. We don't want to change anyone's thoughts, but we do want to open the door to different perspectives that maybe you're not currently looking at and now that we are a few weeks away from it, there might be. I would even say there definitely is a little less emotion involved, not to downplay the situation at all, but we know that just looking at some of the reactions from people from fans and athletes and people in the CrossFit media space I think a lot of people feel like they have to say something right away just because they have a platform.

03:13

And I would say, if you put them in a dark room and say, let's be honest about this, I think some of them might regret some of those initial reactions, even though they're raw and credible. But, sam, what were your initial thoughts? We were actually recording a podcast when it happened and our phones started blowing up during that episode and then it was just a snowball effect from there. What were your initial stances on this and what happened?

Sam RheeCo-host

03:40

I'm coming from the perspective of someone who's been doing CrossFit for 10 years, who truly believes in the methodology, someone who is a huge CrossFit proponent. And when Lazar Djukic died, that emotional impact was way beyond what I was expecting inside myself, I think for a lot of people inside myself, I think for a lot of people, and I think the circumstances were such that it made it so difficult to process emotionally for everyone, even for someone like me who has no connection as an athlete to the CrossFit Games. I've watched them and admired them, but to see that was so depressing. It was my feelings. But I was also surprised how many people felt so hurt by this incident and called into question a lot of things. Honestly, and that's why I think this podcast is important, because it really makes you self-reflect about a lot of things around CrossFit and, whether that's justified or not justified, I think it's appropriate, especially with the magnitude of someone like Lazar Djokic passing away Like that invites and demands reflection and discussion Right.

David SyvertsenHost

05:18

Yeah, and we're going to come at this from like a bird's eye perspective and kind of look at all the surrounding factors to this. What I don't want to do is even start a conversation of were there enough lifeguards? Is this event safe? I know it's going to come up at some point in this conversation, but we don't know facts. There's an investigation going on that. I'm sure there will be some facts put out there for the community to reflect on. But in this world now we're so quick to want to really be a pick a side of an argument. Who's at fault? Who's it was at the lifeguard? Was it Dave Cascio? Was it Don Fall? Was it the athletes themselves? Right, uh, could this have been prevented? Um, that's that's what I always call Monday morning quarterback.

05:58

It's easy to come up with solutions to, uh, what should have happened two, three, four weeks after it actually happened. But look at any sort of historical change. People died in car accidents after getting drunk and they had to come up with laws. People were not wearing seatbelts when cars were first made. People started dying. Then we started making rules and laws against it. This is where CrossFit's infancy as a sport is exposed where they've done run, swim run. They've done swim every year. They've done it in the ocean with sharks. I've been an athlete at Guadalupalooza where we swam in between deadlifts and strict handstand pushups at 8.45 at night where you couldn't see more than 50 feet out into the ocean or bay, wherever you were down in Miami.

06:47

There are a lot of things that you can look at now and say, hey, that probably was not very safe. But again, mistakes need to happen for progress to be made and unfortunately, in some cases it does turn into a life and death situation. And that's where I actually empathize. I feel bad for so many different people. That was my initial emotion to this. Friends and family of Lazar were first. You know his brother was actually a competitor at the CrossFit Games. I can't even imagine what those emotions must have been like.

07:22

I remember watching Dave Castro's story. He does a very good job at the games of showing some behind the scenes of athletes in cold tubs and on his last video his brother was asking people where's Lazar. He came in, he was ahead of me and it was just so kind of raw and innocent in that no one at that time knew that he was underwater and he hadn't come out and these kinds of situations it does. It was sam put it a good way. It forces you to reflect and that's what I really want to do here in this episode.

07:55

So, looking back at the the safety of events at the cross, at games I've been following this since inception, basically, and I have always looked at the swimming events as dangerous, but not life threatening, beyond to a point where it's irresponsible. Crossfit has already said hey, we are going to cancel all swimming events from all CrossFit sanctioned events until further notice. Our coaches said we have said that swimming should be part of a fitness test of this level, but maybe it doesn't need to be in open water. You know, if this happened in a pool, he probably does not drown because he's easy to find at that point. Do you think that CrossFit needs to stay away from swimming at this point? Do you think that CrossFit?

Sam RheeCo-host

09:06

needs to stay away from swimming at this point. Do you think it's something that's you know? I mean 25 athletes I think the number is 25 died in triathlons in the water this past year. Is it part of the accepting of the risk? Because that's really what I want to start off is how much risk should an athlete accept? How much risk is held on the shoulders of CrossFit HQ and Dave Castro?

09:17

This was one of the biggest topics of conversation after this occurred. So you know, lazar Djukic, it was an 800-meter open water swim. They had run three and a half miles prior to that and the debate about safety, about open water swim and temperature and running beforehand and all of that. It was overwhelming. I cannot if I read another vitriolic post by someone saying this was criminal in some way or that this should never have happened in open water, or all these things. I'm going to throw up because I don't know and nobody knows You're right, because I don't know and nobody knows You're right. 25 triathlon athletes. But people also pointed out hundreds of thousands of people competed at ASAP.

09:54

The percentage is. You know the percentages don't line up, so I don't like debating whether open water swim is safe or not safe. Should CrossFit have man you know, done it the way they did? I don't know, I'm not an expert. I don't know, I'm not an expert, I don't care. We saw a number of quote experts I mean people that I really respect, like Henshaw, others who have opined on this, and I respect and I listen to what they have to say.

10:17

Ultimately speaking, I'm going to wait on that question and see what happens, because I agree with a majority of people. I was just talking to Adam Ramson Swimming is an important part of fitness in terms of demonstrating your ability to be fit, and I agree with that. I think it's a unique modality that's different than a lot of other exercises exercises, and I think, as a society, if we emphasize that swimming is important, just like we emphasize running or lifting heavy weights, that is important. The way you do it, how you do it, I'm not going to debate that. I do know, though, a lot of people like you, others who have competed in open water swims, have found it really scary, absolutely Very challenging, and so those types of issues have to be discussed.

David SyvertsenHost

11:11

I mean, I'm not an elite athlete. I have not competed in water that often. I've competed in pools, definitely feel much better in there, but it's still scary. Mike McKinney, we were talking about our back and forth in Arizona this year. There's lifeguards. You're in a pool. You're never swimming that far away from people. If you do go on there, you're very easy to find. There's still panic when you get to a point where you really cannot control your breathing anymore and your muscles are starting to shut down.

11:38

And one of my most vivid memories of 2016 Guadalupe was breaststroking because I could no longer freestyle and I started breathing in a way that I don't normally hear myself breathe and I'm literally thinking. I don't think anyone sees me. Right now. I'm not going to come down on Guadalupalooza. I don't know. Maybe they did have eyes on me.

11:58

I was by myself. I was the first one in the water, not a humble brag. By the way, that was the plan of the workout. That was Dave go unbroken on the deadlift. So it was.

12:07

I didn't want to swim around people. My biggest fear of that event was jumping in with eight other people at the same time, one of them landing on me, kicking me, and they were just, you know, no one would know I was underwater. So that was my plan backfired a little bit and that I couldn't breathe when I was actually swimming. That was my plan Backfired a little bit in that I couldn't breathe when I was actually swimming and it was a very scary like yeah, there was probably a little bit of a death type fear in that when I was a boat driver, slash lifeguard in New Hampshire for my summer job during high school college, every week there was a mini sprint triathlon and it started off with water, then it was a bike, then it was a swim and it was tiny. I I mean you'd have groups of five or fifteen, it was never more than that, and we had probably six or seven lifeguards and I drove the boat along the deep section in case someone needed to hold on to something. And I remember being so fearful because you can't watch everyone and that guy's in front he looks like the best swimmer but he also looks the most fatigued. But there's six people back there and you are like almost forced into a decision of who to pursue and who not to, and you're trying to keep eyes and the entire time every week it was our, it was our most anxiety filled 15 minutes of the week every week because you weren't completely sure if you had eyes on everyone. So, when I always accept like a lot of times when I reflect on things like this, I remember the Kobe Bryant death, when he died in the helicopter crash, really had a strong impact on me.

13:30

For whatever reason, I try to take experiences and tie them to what I go through right to see if I can understand it on a deeper level. So I did that as an athlete. What I just talked about being in water and being very fearful I even say, on a lesser scale, not life and death the row burpee box jump workout that we just did last week. There's a point where a lot of us CrossFit athletes kind of do this right, you are over fatigued, you went way too hard and we call it dark. We almost compliment it in some ways and it's admirable, but it's not smart. There's a difference. Where I pushed through that, I went for it. I was chasing a number, I was trying to beat Alex, I was trying to get this, I was trying to get my splits right to the point I could no longer control my breathing. I still had 40 seconds left to work, I started feeling weird goosebumps on my arm and my neck. That is where I label this almost like an athlete responsibility in some ways, and that's where this can get really sensitive, in that this guy was a water polo player, probably one of the most comfortable athletes at the CrossFit Games ever in the water. Those guys tread water for hours and get pummeled and they're tired Absolutely, did he? Because he knew he could do well.

14:50

In that event, can you go down the path of saying we can't only place blame on one side? It's usually never one side. It's not the programming, the workout, the lifeguard. Can you put some of this responsibility on athletes and the culture of this sport? We've been talking about this, you and I, sam.

15:09

We had a good little talk the other night about like some athletes can't control themselves even on a workout level here at a 7 am class on a Wednesday. It scares me as a coach. Yeah, like they have bad knees. They're doing max squat cleans and pistols and running. They have bad shoulders. They're kipping and butterflying 34 unbroken reps so that they can have their best score of the day. You know who you are. That is a very similar level of discussion that I'm trying to understand this from a bird's eye perspective of that athlete. Did he overextend himself? Do games, athletes do that, and then when something bad happens, oh, it's CrossFit's fault. The heat strokes from Murph back in 2014, 15, that was brought up afterwards. People are trying to win the title of fittest athlete in the world. There's red flags but they push through it for the pursuit. Are you accepting risk, potentially death, of pursuing this kind of competition at the elite level?

Sam RheeCo-host

16:13

I think there are three topics which I think you're going to address later, but I think when you raise that question, the first is if you put athletes through risk which there's always some risk involved, even in a class is the safety protocols that you have in place acceptable? So, for example, if there is something that is concerning even in a class, do you make sure that you have some guardrails up or monitoring or whatever, so that you see someone doing squat cleans and they're starting to really not look good? You're like whoa stop. So you're actually kind of stopping them before they get to that point, and so the question would be safety protocols, which again have been discussed ad nauseum for this. Were there enough safety protocols for the athletes pushing? We don't have those facts. You and I, you and I don't, we don't, and there is an investigation, and people are even conflicting about the investigation and who's involved in everything, whatever. The second part of that is what kind of risk do you need to put these athletes under in order to determine the fittest on earth? And that's where I'm sure we'll talk about the PFAA and what they're talking about. So you know, yes, athletes are accepting risk, but what is CrossFit Games' responsibility in terms of, you know, reaching for a goal and then protecting the athletes to a certain degree, not always Like.

17:47

Listen, remember Brooke Wells snatching 180, dislocated tore, all those elbow ligaments. I don't know. You can't really put that on CrossFit in that situation per se, or can you? I don't know, I don't know how many events were leading up to that. Was a one rep max in front of everyone the right way of testing it? You, as a programmer, know how to challenge the athletes, find the fittest, but also mitigate risk to a certain point. You do that every day as a programmer. You're like this would be a great workout, this would be fun. I would like to see this, but I feel like there's a lot of risk involved and so that's part of the reason why I do truly empathize for Dave Castro.

18:32

I really do. It's not easy and I, as a non-programmer, can't sit there and criticize. How dare you do the run in front of this one? How dare you make this do this? How dare you put these athletes into these situations? I don't know. But there are people. You probably have a better perspective than most, but I will say I don't know either.

David SyvertsenHost

18:54

I don't have an equation, but you have a better, you have more experience. I have a better gauge because of experience, but I don't have the answer. We talked about this the other night. Pull answer we talked about this the other night. Pull-ups and and hang snatches right in one workout how many is too many? 63, 70? I mean people did 10 rounds of that workout, right? 90 pull-ups, right. Is that too many for a workout? And then I'm like, well, we do cindy, we do murph, so no, we can't be too many, because then we never train it, then we have them do it during murph, like that's. I mean, I think the critical thinking component is what's most important and and I do think these guys critically think about programming as much as any humans on the earth, the ones that run the games.

Sam RheeCo-host

19:31

I will say yes, but then I will say, in my limited experience with Bosman, with Castro, they are very uncompromising, Like they will go balls to the wall. Like I told you when I went to that CrossFit medical summit, it was like packed in there yeah, I remember you telling me that and I said there's, and Boz is like let's do 135 pound snatches, Yep, and I'm like what? The quarterfinals?

19:56

the quarterfinals test yeah the quarterfinals and I was like, wait a second, these are a bunch of like. They're not really like awesome CrossFit and we're all sitting there trying to do 135 snatches in like this tiny little area and part of me says that's what CrossFit HQ's mentality is. A little bit is listen, there are no training wheels, you have to go for it or you're not going to get better. And two, it's like okay, but how much risk is like oh my God, that guy just dropped 135 pound barbell on his head or on somebody else's head and so, and until it happens, he's like oh you know what, maybe we should switch it.

David SyvertsenHost

20:28

And this is where games athletes are saying how about you try to prevent things from happening rather than just respond when something goes wrong?

Sam RheeCo-host

20:36

And so I don't have any experience, but the little glimpses I see.

David SyvertsenHost

20:40

I can see where some people's perspective and criticisms might come into play, so I'm going to tie this to the affiliate, an issue that I am, you know to quote what we've talked about last couple of weeks with Tim keeps me up at night. The again tried to take this event and tie it to. I actually talked to one of the guys that runs another CrossFit event sanctioned event, big deal, big role. And he says if this does not make everyone reflect on their own safety protocols, whether it's at their competition or at their own gyms, you're doing it wrong. And I immediately thought after this, after my emotion kind of you know, I kind of took in what actually happened to. Lazar is running here across at Bison At our new affiliate that's been here for five years I should say newer. Right, we moved at our old affiliate. We had a great running situation on a road. Almost no one ever drove by it, never had traffic issues.

21:40

Where we are now is very different and every time we do running workouts there's a fear in my head that we are running into a street that is.

21:49

There's a couple blind spots.

21:51

You have a bunch of people that drive like idiots on this road because they're trying to speed up to get to the highway, and we also have very tired athletes that are not the smartest when they're tired and they'll take big, wide turns.

22:04

And I've had fears of people getting hit by a car running and whether it's me, whether it's my brother, who, aaron, has been the closest I've ever seen, I think a car missed him by less than two inches and I mean that not exaggerating. Um, the other day we had someone gotten to a fight with a guy that was driving and didn't didn't look both ways and you know they're kind of just doing the whole like arm raise up to each other. We have kids that run here. That you know. My biggest fear every time we run there's times I can't even watch and I mean that when these people that will run to the street. I'm like I have this image in my head of a car just flying down the road and hitting a person and killing them. I do that flying down the road and hitting person and killing them.

Sam RheeCo-host

22:45

I do that is one of my fears. Yay, no more running again.

David SyvertsenHost

22:46

Yes, so does this change? And we have made a lot of changes to how we structure workouts, meaning Sam's a big part of this. On Thursday mornings you have a workout that starts off with a run. He doesn't like staggering starts but he will. If it's 6 or 7 am, there's 30 people that want to run. I mean, thank God, we have half our gin that won't run anymore. They all want the C2 bike.

Sam RheeCo-host

23:09

You better get here early if you want that.

David SyvertsenHost

23:13

Or they take the time cap on the rogue bike so they don't have to try hard. But that's a topic for another day, sam.

Sam RheeCo-host

23:18

I will say this I think the running is safe enough. Yeah, I mean, you know. What, though, can I?

David SyvertsenHost

23:22

interrupt a little CrossFit staff, Dave Castro. Adrian Bosman would have said the swimming is safe enough at the games.

Sam RheeCo-host

23:30

Yes. So that gives me pause and gives you pause, obviously, I would say the first thing is is should you cut out running altogether? And the answer is no, right. Like, even though I suck at running and I say I'm always hurt myself running if I run a lot, like, I still need to run and I and as soon as my heel gets a little bit better, I'm going to be back to running because I have to run.

23:53

Uh, whatever I can, I think it's on us to remind our athletes that when you are running, that you have to be aware and it's not just about you don't own the road, you don't run in the middle. I've seen some people literally run in the middle of the road, especially on the turnaround. Yeah, so you have to be aware. I think the traffic is safe. So you're talking about athlete responsibility? Yes, and I think we're constantly looking at ways to improve it. Still are, and I think so. I think it's an ongoing issue. But if I honestly felt like it was unsafe for me to run or my athletes, I wouldn't do it. But I worry about the same thing in terms of like, oh my gosh, they ran yesterday, now they're doing double unders today. How many people's ankles and feet are going to be sore. I worry about that too. There's a million things you can worry about A million and you should.

David SyvertsenHost

24:51

Honestly, if you take on any sort of affiliate ownership, even as a coach, you should be afraid. That's part of what we said. You should be nervous when you coach because there's so many things you got to keep track of and athlete safety is probably the number one priority. You know community fitness, health, progress scaling. Athlete safety is first.

Sam RheeCo-host

25:13

But again, there is athlete responsibility. So I'm like I let them know. We just ran a lot yesterday. We're doing a lot of double unders today. See how you feel, judge accordingly in terms of your performance. And if somebody like goes ham and does 300 double unders after running two miles and their feet are killing them, well, I let you know, and that was you're not five, so you should have figured that out, especially when I gave it to you. On the whiteboard talk, which I'm sure you showed up early enough to listen to and hear when I talked to you about it. Yep, so there's a balance that we have to have.

David SyvertsenHost

25:50

Yeah, there's always a balance, and this is where you want to tie this back to the games and the games athletes. I don't know if they're required to give physicals or medical reports to CrossFit HQ before the competition starts. There's a rumor out there that Lazar has had a heart episode before in Dubai, an event where they ran up a bunch of stairs. Again, that's speculation. I don't think we should go too deep into that, but there's a lot of kind of dual responsibility here and I don't like how a situation like this immediately turns into finger pointing, and I think the number one thing to do is everyone should reflect on their own process, athletes included. By the way, you know, dave Castro interviewed every single games athlete for his YouTube channel prior to the games. Did any one of them bring up safety to them, to the regard that someone might die? No, but afterwards they want to put them on the cross and they want to sacrifice him and say like hey, we finally found the guilty culprit where you know you hate to say.

26:54

Like athletes, you know accidents happen and how you respond to something like this is very different than a Navy SEAL. Just listen to Angelo from Mayhem, who's a firefighter. He goes oh about once a week I see a dead body and he goes. That doesn't mean I don't have an insensitivity to it, but there are a lot of people there that you could tell, and even some of the conversations, they've never had a tragedy like this. They've never dealt personally, dealt with something like this, thank god. But someone in the military, someone that's works for fire and police you know even the firefighters here and police officers here like they see a lot of shit that I'm never gonna see and in some ways I'm kind of like in a, like sheltered in that regard in a.

27:37

I haven't been through a lot of personal tragedy in my lifetime. I've known a couple people that have died in accidents and, you know, went through 9-11 from an outside perspective, did not lose anyone personally. We have some friends that have. If you can sit back and say Dave Castro was the person that had to make the decision on whether or not the games had to move on. Nobody else had to do that and I think that was probably, other than losing a friend or family member, the hardest part of that weekend. You have to be the one to make a decision. A decision had to be made and most people did not have to make it.

Sam RheeCo-host

28:16

I think if I was Dave Castro and I had to face Lazar Djukic's family after that, I don't know if I could. I don't think I'm strong enough. I think I would quit. I would leave the sport, I would leave the games If I felt in any way responsible and you can't help, but not these were your, you know.

28:35

So it's devastating to feel that you've contributed to somebody's death in some way. And you're right, I have seen dead people in my career, especially in training, but nothing has fortunately impacted me in such a personal way. But I can't imagine how he feels or how I would feel in that situation if I was also Don Fall and I was responsible ultimately for the safety of the people participating. But on the other hand, I don't think you're probably just I would Dodging my responsibility if I did that Right. So you, you have responsibility to his family, to you know the sorrow that they feel. You know that the depth of your own. You know sadness for whatever role you may feel like you've played in that. But I know they also feel like they have a responsibility to make things better, to build on it, to not make this something about themselves and their own personal responsibility, but also to make CrossFit better. So it's a really weird situation and I don't know if I could process it well if I was in any one of their shoes, as you said.

David SyvertsenHost

29:56

Yeah. So just to wrap up this part of it in regard to where do we think Dave Cash's future and other people involved in the elite level of the sport have made a few demands. The big one was removing Dave Castro from the sport team, and Dave Castro is essentially the founding father of the CrossFit Games and he's been kicked out. He's been brought back. From my outsider perspective, he's probably the most important person in the sport. From a non-competitive, from a non-athlete perspective, he's run it, he's grown it, it's his baby and he has changed his ways. But there is probably still some really tough leadership that rubs some athletes, especially ones that have a little bit more sensitivity to them, the wrong way and they want to see this sport become a little bit more formalized, in some ways safer, in some ways a little bit more predictable. Because I will say this about the games, sam, I love the games. I don't think they need as many events as they do to find the real result. You know, like I think in some ways it has become a Hunger Games, you know, can you even make it to the end? Does it need to be that?

31:30

And I find myself again reflect on my own. There are times I get caught up into that as a programmer for a gym is I want to push the envelope because people can. Does that mean it's smart? Though, just because you can does not mean you should, and I do catch myself and you catch me sometimes. You'll call me out, sometimes on some workouts where it's like, hey, 12 minutes would have been fine the other day, not 17, right, like it probably would have been an equally effective workout. Or, hey, these loads, it could have been 20% lighter. It still would have gotten the same result for the gym. Dave Castro, if they cut the events down to six per weekend and you know that's almost cutting them in half, maybe in some cases into a third could they still find the actual result? And the answer is probably yes. So could you see that being the future of the sport, where it's a lot less volume and it's less extreme?

Sam RheeCo-host

32:30

I think there are two sides to it. The first is, every year Dave Castro has programmed or whver has programmed harder, tougher, more events, and yet these athletes have risen to the challenge and done insane, insanely well, like not just well, but insanely well, and most of them don't get hurt yes, the vast majority. And the numbers, the accomplishments have increased exponentially every year. And so the argument could be made if you didn't press the limits, how would you have known that people should be snatching 300 plus every time, that they should be doing this after this, after this, after this? So the one side would say listen, how else are you going to determine who's fittest? We haven't even found the upper limit of potential yet. We're still on that upward curve. So that's where we should be, and the goal of the games is to find the fittest, the fittest. And we haven't had 15 people other than the ring dip chest pec issue. We're not killing anybody here, except for Lazar Djokic potentially. So that's where they've been for 17 years up until now. But the second side is and this is where the PFAA has said we don't need to go to that extreme. Like you said, hunger games to determine the fittest, we can reel it in.

33:53

But, more importantly, dave Castro has not been responsive to safety issues. That's what their number one issue is. It's whether Lazar Djokic's death could have been prevented, whether the appropriate safety protocols were in place. It's the fact that Dave Castro, they're saying, has not been responsive. They haven't listened to our concerns and we're the ones in the thick of it doing these things. So that's why they want what transparency between PFAA and CrossFit, they wanted the independent safety team on an ongoing basis in the future, and that they demand that Dave Castro be removed from the sport team. And so these are not just like athletes. I don't respect. It's Brent Fikowski, it's Pat Felner, fia Sagafi, annie Thor's daughter. Annie Thor's daughter. Now, when Annie Thor's daughter, who's been a veteran from the beginning, is saying Dave Castro needs to be removed here and she's made her living doing this, successfully competing at a high level, for 10, 12 years longer, when someone like her says this, I have to listen, you have to.

David SyvertsenHost

35:04

I have to listen, don't have to agree, but you have to really respect not even listen. You have to respect that opinion Absolutely.

Sam RheeCo-host

35:11

So what do you think, when these are the people competing on a year after year basis and the leader? Now, it would be as if a group of athletes came to the gym, came to you and then like dave, you got to stop. Like you're not listening to us, right, we're, we don't like this, yeah, and? And at least athletes here can make the choice of going to another gym, right, right, or scaling workouts, or scaling or whatever.

David SyvertsenHost

35:41

So this is the home run for them. This is where a lot of the not a lot, I mean some of these guys make their livelihood.

Sam RheeCo-host

35:47

They do off of this stuff and they drew a line in the sand. And so if you were CrossFit HQ, how would you feel? How would you respond to this?

David SyvertsenHost

35:55

Yeah, I mean if you're above Dave Castro. So if you're Don Full and you're looking at athletes criticizing Castro and Castro budging on some, but not a lot, right? I messaged a games athlete, one of the guys that Sam just said. I don't want to release anything, he said just out of respect for him. But he said this has been a 10 to 15-year issue. They've been making requests and maybe some complaints for 10 to 15 years and it seems like he's ignoring most of them. I mean they have crash pads under the rope climbs now. They have standardized heights on pull-up bars.

36:29

They did do this event. These athletes were warming up in the dark. It was so early in the morning. They had outdoor events planned at night. They were trying to make some changes but to them it wasn't enough.

36:41

And I think if we had a group of athletes coming here and was like Dave, you're squat snatching every Monday morning for 12 weeks straight and you have all these people getting hurt, but you keep doing it, can you like? This is not right. I'm like all right, fine, we'll take one of those weeks off. We're still going to do it. 11 out of 12 weeks every Monday morning, one rep max squat snatch. You know that would be. And then if I keep doing that where I could say, well, I did listen to some of your demands but no, you don't control the operation, it's my decision at the end of the day, that could be easily viewed from the outside as you are being too stubborn, you're not listening, but on the flip side you'll have some people say a leader in Castro's position or in our position at this gym that we should know what's best. We're not going to make emotional decisions based on what a few loud people talk about. I mean, I've had people talk about programming, both, you know, both to my face and beyond my back. Oh, absolutely, and I do. I love having the conversation. I really genuinely do, and I'm not the kind of guy that won't listen. But I will have a response, because no one puts more thought into it than I do.

37:52

Most people, when they have a negative experience, whether it's a workout, it's a movement where people, when they have a negative experience, whether it's a workout, it's a movement where they are in life. That situation has so much control over their opinion about programming that it's hard right. Example, if I have someone that used to come to the gym five, six days a week. Now they come once or twice and they're saying the workouts are too hard. The answer is you're just not as fit as you used to be. Maybe it could be it could be. That was that's what I'll say, and maybe someone else will. No, no, it's. He doesn't come anymore because the workouts aren't too hard, that kind of thing.

Sam RheeCo-host

38:23

Or too dangerous or they move like yep whatever it's.

David SyvertsenHost

38:27

Yeah, exactly, I mean that. That could go down a whole different discussion, but I tie that to dave castro, where I do think he has made some changes and I've heard games athletes say he has changed, but it might not be enough. And that's where, from a Don Fall perspective, if you really feel like the sport is about to fall apart because your home run hitters the biggest faces in the sport might band together and leave, you might need to make Dave Castro the fall guy. But who's going to replace him? And then what spillover? What's the negative impact of getting rid of Dave Castro? And that's huge, potentially. That's where I think the next part of the outline comes into play. Where should affiliates care about what's going on with this, beyond the fact that you're a good person and you don't want to see someone lose their life?

Sam RheeCo-host

39:23

yes and no. I mean we talked about it with tim carroll what happens on the hq level really doesn't affect us in any way on a daily level here at our crossfit affiliate.

David SyvertsenHost

39:34

I will say this though to interrupt you again, sorry it's okay, I did have an athlete from our gym that's not into sport at all, but you're surprised how much they know about the sport. So they're into it somewhat but they don't compete. So they said, like I've actually started to question whether or not I want to do CrossFit anymore because I don't know if I want to be associated with organizations that Fair.

39:54

And I was like whoa, then it was not a this is not a drama emotional person where, like they just overreact to everything. That was something that really made me think like wow, I've so they say, so far without the investigation being out there. Does that affect how an affiliate should want to kind of tie and bind with CrossFit?

Sam RheeCo-host

40:30

My answer is a provisional yes. So we benefited. When CrossFit was big, espn right Broadcast the heyday 2012, 13, 14, when things were big like gyms were growing exponentially and it wasn't the affiliates, it was the publicity and the PR surrounding CrossFit. And then CrossFit has always, since then, after COVID and Glassman, has done such a poor job with PR in general. I just feel like they've tried so hard but they have not found their way, and this is just another hit to the body in terms of what is the message CrossFit is trying to put out there for people Lately it's been not forging elite fitness.

41:19

It's been available for everyone, accessible to everyone. Do it at home, safe, not dangerous. Like Don Fall said, one of the big things when we talked to him was we have to get the message out that CrossFit isn't scary, it isn't bad. You know, it's for everybody, which is true, it is true, I do believe it. But when you see something like this on the New York Times CrossFit integrity, is it safe? All this sort of stuff, like you said, the casual person it's just another reason for them to be like you know what? I don't see Orange Theory having this issue. I'm just going to try that out.

David SyvertsenHost

41:57

Yeah, so it's funny. I try my best to stay away from comment sections in debatable topics because some of them aren't even. Some of them are actual robots that are just trying to stem reactions out of people. But also, I think the keyboard warriors most of them, not all are kind of like the people that don't have a backbone, like they would never say something out loud that they would behind a comment section where they don't know who you are and they just say some stuff. That's really extreme on both sides of any debatable topic.

42:28

But I did go read a few comments of YouTubers and news articles that were not CrossFit. Okay, so these are not CrossFitters that are commenting, and it was like told you knew it. This is why I don't do CrossFit and I'm telling you this right now. Whether we agree with it or not, there is a perception out there. I golfed with someone the other day, met him at the golf course, we were in a fundraiser and we told him about the New York Times story that you sent to the coaches and he goes like yeah.

43:00

I've always heard that stuff's really extreme. Now the guy was in his sixties, he was older, but he goes. Yeah, I've like that was his first reaction, cause I've always heard that it was extreme. I'm like, hold on, hold on, like we're literally on the tee box. I was box. I was like this is like the games it's. It's not really. It's like telling someone that because they sprained their ankle or because you know someone's tore their acl in an nba basketball game, you can't go play pickup basketball with your buddies. It's not the same, you know it's. It's just not.

43:30

And like we talked about, he didn't really care. To be honest with you and I think most people don't care that are outside the community, just like most of you in the community had no idea how many triathletes died last year. Like you're not in that community, you don't care, you're a good person, but you still don't care. You don't know their names, you don't know their stories, you don't know what happened and you're not going to go try to find out either. So most people on the outside across the community, they don't care about this, but there is a perception that we have fought forever that it's dangerous and in some ways it is. I'm not going to fight against it, I lean into it. It's one of the first things you told me years ago, before you even coach. It's like we should lean into it, not run away from it.

44:06

And cross it by nature can be dangerous and so can running, you know. So can, uh, flag football. But the the the public perception of trying to get cross at the brand to 20 to 30 million people Don Fall's goal that he talked about on this table over a year ago you're not going to get there. When this is the big, the only stories you see about CrossFit is when someone dies. And that's where I think CrossFit from a PR perspective, from a media perspective, they don't do a good job. They don't put out the good messaging out there. They don't get good commercials on TV showing how weight loss and people coming off of medication and people overcoming mental health issues because of community, that's the stuff that you never see publicly. You only see it within our circle.

Sam RheeCo-host

44:52

What would you do if you were Don Fall right now, right at this very second? Would you fire Castro or would you keep him? Am I gonna be canceled?

David SyvertsenHost

45:02

um, I, I, uh, I would keep castro um, unless this investigation proved that he cut corners on some sort of safety protocols. Like you know, one of our members said, oh, I heard a rumor that the lifeguards weren't lifeguards, they were just people that were on staff standing on paddle boards. I'm like, okay, this is where you got to be careful and like you really have to verify that information before you put that out there. But if there are things like that where these weren't lifeguards or they weren't trained or they didn't have like meetings but I mean Sean Woodland and those guys they took someone on their podcast and that used to be on the CrossFit medical staff Like the training for that stuff is pretty rigorous, like it's a very sophisticated program. And that guy I think he headed up the medical team at CrossFit. He said that they made a lot of requests to Dave and his team for financial, like they had to go through a process to get investment into the safety protocols and they never said no to anything.

46:01

And when I hear stuff like that, I really don't think that you can pin this on Castro from my outsider perspective. So because of that, I want I think firing him is the easy thing to do, just like I think canceling the games would have been the easy thing to do, but there's a huge amount of repercussions that could come from that and I don't think it's necessary to put him on the cross as like the sacrificial lamb of this whole situation. I think if I was Don Fall, I would be communicating a lot more, and that's always been their downfall. I still don't get it. Maybe it's above my pay grade.

46:40

I'm just a level two CrossFit coach that has a bachelor's degree. I'm not a big white-collar, smart, intelligent guy. But I think that when you communicate things, you're not trying to change anyone's mind, but you're also not coming across as you're trying to hide something. If I'm Don Fall, I'm hopping on a town hall Zoom call where you can ask questions with affiliate owners, members of the community, with athletes weekly and to give it a sounding board and let people just talk this out, because I really do think that the more you talk this out with people and you go in with an open mind, you will be able to understand the perspective of someone else. But if you hide, you don't talk, you leave keyboard warriors to put all the information out there. You've lost control of the message.

Sam RheeCo-host

47:29

I think what would you do Downfall.

47:32

Yeah. So at first, after you create the app yeah, that's right. At first I was of the mindset that they had to get rid of Dave Castro. That was my initial Initial emotional response yes, you take the hit, you're the responsible one. You take the hit, you take the fall.

47:54

But now, actually also listening to you, I think there are a couple things. The first thing is I think loyalty is important. There's no doubt, and I would say the first thing is, for whatever issues Dave Castro has, there's no doubt, he has been completely committed to CrossFit in every way possible, as much as any human on earth, as much as anyone else, and so, as a person who is loyal to the people that you work with, you cannot throw anyone under the bus. Now, if I'm the CEO and I know I have shareholders or whatever PE, like a private equity firm, that they might kill me for it and I might have to take the fall Sorry, I keep saying fall Don, fall Right, yeah, but I mean I know what you're saying, but so be it. I think if I'm a principled person and I know that this person has worked for CrossFit for whatever 17, 18, whatever 20 years, I'm keeping him. Yeah, now I understand what the fallout there will be negative feedback, major. It could kill CrossFit. I don't care. I'm keeping the people that Now, but there are a couple things involved.

49:04

One is when I listened to Sean Woodland and Tommy Marquez and they talked about it. They used to work for CrossFit Yep and they were so careful about talking about this. They're very careful guys, right, but you have to listen to what they don't say in order to figure out what they're thinking. And what they're not saying is no, dave Castro isn't a dictator. They're not saying that. They had the same issues that the PFAA had when they were working on media team. No response, no feedback, dictatorial decisions that were made. Just don't get it. And so crappy PR. And so Dave Castro would. I would talk to Dave if I was Don Fall and I'd say listen, you have to change, because the I don't care what your meaning is or your intent. There are a crap load of people out here that really feel you are not engaging them. You have changed to a certain degree, but you haven't changed enough.

David SyvertsenHost

50:02

Okay so that's the line, because he has changed, but he hasn't changed enough.

Sam RheeCo-host

50:06

Right, that's what you said right, that's exactly what you said. So if Castro is willing to actually take people's input, actually realize the way I'm doing things has to change more and then present that to others, like, listen, we haven't done exactly the right thing, but we're going to continue to do the right thing, then I would keep them in a heartbeat. I'd work with the PFAA, say, listen, here's Castro, this is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to take your things into consideration. I'm not firing him but listen, he's not going to be the same Dave Castro in the sense of whatever issues you've had with him he's going to address with you. But we're not compromising in terms of who we work with, who is our personnel. He can't fire Dave Castro. I just realized that right now. If he fires him, CrossFit is dead. It's dead. He has to keep him and he has to change what's within the circle there will be a major civil war within the CrossFit community if he gets fired.

David SyvertsenHost

51:14

You cannot Like the Savant crew who love him or hate him. You know he's already said I listened to what he put out there. This is I forget what day, it might have been Monday or Tuesday and it was you know it was a little aggressive, you know coming down on the athletes, but he's also he admits it in there he's like Dave Castro's unofficial brother, like they're so close, and he's loyal to maybe even a fault Like. I don't even know if he has that much credibility on this subject because of how biased he is towards dave.

51:49

However, there is a huge group of savant type people in crossfit space that I've always said this there is old school, new school in crossfit. There is. I don't care what anyone says. Most of those old schoolers will revolt to the point where they would probably leave the community. The open numbers numbers will plummet. If the open numbers plummet, you start to lose a part of the games. I don't think it'd be right away, but I do think you start to lose part of it. And Savant does say a lot of positive things.

Sam RheeCo-host

52:16

I like some of his ideas to be honest, I can't stand him. He's a total a-hole in my mind. He is, he is an asshole. I cannot stand even the way. He should be out of CrossFit. I cannot stand the MF-er, but I respect that he does bring a significant I would say he has credibility, but that?

David SyvertsenHost

52:33

no, he has credibility, but it doesn't mean he uses it correctly.

Sam RheeCo-host

52:36

Yeah, when you're talking about like hey, danielle Brandon, are your boobs real? Yeah, okay, get the F out of here. Okay, and that's his sense of humor and some people love it. It's disgusting, yeah, it's disgusting. I cannot stand him and I won't give him any credibility, but I do acknowledge the power and the popularity that he has within the sport.

David SyvertsenHost

52:55

But this is where you know to play devil's advocate to the direction we're going. You can't fire Dave Castro. I will go on record saying I don't think he should be. However, if you don't, the negative repercussions of that can be. Does he start to feel invincible, like man? They're not going to fire me if someone died. No, no, no, no, no, no no.

Sam RheeCo-host

53:11

Do you think he'll actually change? This is the CEO. You say look at everything here. Yeah, Look at the state of CrossFit, Look at the discussion that's going on. Dave, what are you about this? This is you, this is you. And if Dave and I believe he does feel responsible for the games, they're his baby he's going to say give me the chance to fix this and I will. I hope so. I hope so Because if he listen, I don't know if Dave has the wherewithal to be able to do so and say it publicly too.

David SyvertsenHost

53:40

I think it's so important. Yes To be humble.

Sam RheeCo-host

53:44

Humble Humility. That's the one thing CrossFit has lacked. That we have always espoused. They have been in service to the affiliates, to others, but they have never been humble Ever.

David SyvertsenHost

53:54

Yeah, you can be in service and lack humility, and I think that's where I would say, over the 10 years of being an affiliate owner. That is the theme, the old school theme that still kind of resides in that circle.

Sam RheeCo-host

54:05

So if he takes responsibility and says all right, I need to fix this, I think he can do it. I think if you're Don Fall, if you only care about private equity, you fire him. If you are actually a real person who cares about CrossFit and you're willing to take the risk that you go down with the ship and that CrossFit dies, you got to keep him. And if it was me, I'm going to keep him. What about?

David SyvertsenHost

54:27

this option. Don Fall gets rid of the games. It's a losing. It loses money. According to them, they did significant budget cuts not the greatest year for that to be out there, but they did significant budget cuts this year for the games. Don Fall's on record saying that Part of the reason why I think they moved to Fort Worth, but again, don't quote me on that. I know some of the financial inner workings of the Masters games and the Teens games and the Adaptive games like they definitely are getting rid of a lot of dead weight slash costs that are weighing the company down.

55:03

If Don Fall looks at this from private equity and says, hey, this is negative PR, we understand it's a celebration of CrossFit, the CrossFit Games, and it does have enough momentum now. Could it hurt the brand? I don't know. You would actually talk to a bunch of Tim Carrolls and say, hey, I actually think for the long-term future 10, 20 years from now, maybe not next year CrossFit without the games associated with them might actually be a better, a better product for it from a fitness regimen. I don't want that. I love the games. But Don Fall, this could be an opportunity for him to say, hey, the games are done and let someone else take it over.

Sam RheeCo-host

55:43

Someone will take it over right, I think you mean just like the legends took over for the Masters.

David SyvertsenHost

55:49

Yeah, it's called the CrossFit Games by Legends, but Rogue can take it over, or someone takes it over Some of these guys. There's enough money in this space. I can see Rogue doing that.

Sam RheeCo-host

55:56

I would say this the games. You can't get rid of it completely, right, because I think if you did the analysis, the think, if you did the analysis, the PR value still outweighs the cost and the open yes, and all that it's too extrably linked and to get rid of that you would basically everyone would be up in arms about that. But I think you have to think about how you can leverage it, like you said. Can you do farm it out? Do you start morphing it into more like high rocks type events, where you're kind of having multiple events for greater participation out there, like I don't know this, could you know? They always say, like you have opportunity in when bad things happen, right, and so you're right.

56:38

This is, I wouldn't say get rid of it, but you're right in the sense you should self reflect and be like what can we do with the games to change it, to make this would with the games to change it? This would be the time to change the landscape, to make it better, right? So do we push it into big, super regional events like High Rocks, you know, more money-making? Do we farm it out to somebody? Savan's idea? Not that we want to talk about him, I don't mind, savan, I mean his opinions, his opinions. Yeah, I mean his opinions, his opinions. Yeah, I mean, I just don't like him as a person.

David SyvertsenHost

57:06

He said that the games should be more of just a celebration for affiliate owners to come together. And yes, we'll watch the games, but the prize money is not what it was and he has this whole idea. It's a 10-minute YouTube video if anyone wants to watch it. I think they took it off in a longer episode and they just made it and he talks about how it should just be a celebration of the community coming together. Let's get rid of the athletes and all their egos and all the prize money. Let's put the money back into the community instead of the athletes' pockets who are turning on the community every opportunity they get.

57:35

I do agree with that, daniel Brennan telling everyone they shouldn't sign up for the Open because we did Dumbbell Snatch Week 1 and Deadlift Week 2. That was literally the reason why, which is absolutely ridiculous, and there are a lot of games athletes that are disconnected. They used to work out from affiliates. They used to come from the affiliates. They used to do the open workouts at affiliates. Now they just like, have their own training camps and then most of them are not a part of the affiliates anymore and it really has fractured the community where we used to be in this together.

58:03

At hoboken I was with the regional athletes in the 5 am class on a Tuesday that missed the games by three spots, like he was doing the same workouts as us. I know it's a different, more sophisticated program now, but we're fractured and his idea was to make the games no longer. Hey, the elite athletes and all the prize money and all the sponsors, affiliate owners this is where we meet every year. A prize money, all the sponsors, affiliate owners this is where we meet every year a festival kind of thing, and you know that.

Sam RheeCo-host

58:27

That's where well, isn't that what wadapalooza sort of is right now?

David SyvertsenHost

58:31

yeah, I mean I think wadapalooza and rogue do a lot of things right. Yeah, that the games could learn from. And when I hear dave cashow say that he never looks and watches and looks at the workouts, that does feed into the idea that he's very stubborn and maybe those are some things that he needs to change, where he needs to get some other people in the room.

Sam RheeCo-host

58:50

There are a lot of people who go to Waterpalooza to compete and they find great joy in it. I just saw Steve O'Day. He was really and you know some of the other big comps. I think Asbury Park did really big this year. Big comps, like I think asbury park did really big this year. Um, I I like the idea of including making it more inclusive for affiliates. Um, I would want to see how the revenue plays and how everything else moves around it. I don't necessarily, but I don't want to get rid of watching um, these elite athletes compete. Same it's, it's aspirational and it's like watching NFL players, like they're freaking amazing people. Yeah, when you watch these people do amazing athletic feats, it's so entertaining. Oh, I agree.

David SyvertsenHost

59:35

It connects us. It really does. It can, it could do a—we could do a better job and I think the games athletes could do a better job of letting this connect to the community. But it is cool to know that Tia, her season, started off doing the same workout. We did 24.1, 24.2, 24.3, did the quarterfinals. We all did the same workouts and different level different, but that doesn't matter, it's still the same.

Sam RheeCo-host

01:00:01

And again, that's the togetherness I'm talking about. That I think they would benefit from. We saw Roman Krennikov and Pat Vellner compete right here. Yeah, 20 feet from us. How much more of a connection can you get between an affiliate and these elite athletes? So I think it can be done. I do like some of these ideas, but the execution is complicated. And it's now more complicated. Well, maybe because there's going to be some flux because of all of these issues, maybe they can find a way of pulling that stuff out in a better way.

David SyvertsenHost

01:00:23

Yeah, a way of pulling that stuff out in a better way. Yeah, so to wrap this up, let's ask ourselves who has the biggest opportunity for impact from here on out, because this is still, even though it's weeks away, and most of us are kind of moved on to the other topics in our lives that we put our mind to. Not that we're disrespecting Lazar and his family, but, like any tragedy, you do move on and it's not wrong, and you do remember at the same time, but there's still something that needs to be done and we will get something from CrossFit at some point. Who has the biggest, most impactful voice here? I'll give you some options Games, athletes, affiliate owners, don Fall, dave Castro. Which of those people have the biggest opportunity to impact positively to get this thing better than it ever has been?

01:01:19

Because I still don't think CrossFit is at its peak. I still don't think the CrossFit Games are at their peak. You start Dave Castro, but he needs to change a few things. Again, don't have a personal relationship with him, so I don't know all the ins and outs of his life, but I do think that there needs to be a little bit more of a professional voice. I love his weekly recaps. I think he does a good job there, but I still think there's a little bit of improvement needed on them, not necessarily just from a public speaking perspective, but to try to be a little bit more open-minded instead of saying, whenever someone gives him a complaint about something, it's like, oh yeah, we'll talk about it, we'll talk about it, Like circle back on every single thing You're going to say that you talk about. That's one of my least favorite things about listening to debates, whether they're political or even sport. It's like, oh I, um, we'll get back to you on that, we'll get back. And then you don't hear them say that's a very, it's an easy cop out. I want to hear him really address some of the issues and be humble about it and understand, and him tell us he doesn't have the answers, he doesn't know. So remember the episode we did on humility the more you hear someone say I don't know and I'm sorry those two things, that's when you know that person's humble or not. If you never hear someone say, yeah, I just don't know, don't know the facts, don't know the story, or hey, I'm sorry, I was wrong. They need an uptick in humility and that's something I wish we could hear from Castro. More is. I'm sorry and I don't know, but I'm working on it and this is what I'm going to do to show you I'm working on it.

01:02:56

I actually think the second most influential part to this are the affiliate owners. I think they're much more important than the games athletes. No offense to the games athletes, but you guys will be gone in three years. We'll still be here. Your career is going to end at some point. Ours won't. Our affiliate is still going to be open and I think affiliate owners need to look at this situation and, whether you agree with what happened or not, whether you want to point the finger or not, I do think an affiliate owner will set the tone for the across the community the big group of communities right, not just the games community of how we respond to any sort of adversity.

01:03:33

We're not done with adversity, we're going to hit more. You know CrossFits and gyms, our gym. We hit adversity weekly, monthly, yearly. How we respond to it should always be measured, should always be magnified. You know you should act like you don't get a second chance. You get one shot to respond to something and I think every single time something comes up, you know when you find out if Castro's going to be involved or not. What's your response and how much impact can that response have on the future of CrossFit? No, not just today. You know the long-term future. So those are the two most influential voices. I don't give a you-know-what about. You know, games, athletes and the amount of followers, the amount of likes that they get. That stuff is so. It lacks substance to me, especially some of these athletes that are not a part of affiliates.

Sam RheeCo-host

01:04:21

They just don't get it, and so that's why I don't really care no offense to those guys, I don't really care what they say about this in the long-term future, I agree with you about Dave Castro. I don't know. He has one of the biggest challenges ahead for him in his career and how he responds to what has happened is going to determine his legacy in terms of CrossFit and the CrossFit Games and whether he pivots with more humility, whether he goes down the way he always has. I don't know, but this is a huge challenge for him and I hope he steps up. But this is a huge challenge for him and I hope he steps up. And similarly, same with Don Fall. He has been a leader for only a very short period of time and how he allows Dave Castro to respond, how he takes this leadership challenge Again probably a huge opportunity in terms of changing things when you have a tragedy like this.

01:05:33

I am so sorry for Lazar Jukic's family and what they've gone through. It's terrible and I don't think we're ever going to forget that. But in addition to that, it would be meaningful on one level if they took this terrible incident and said what is it that we're going to do to make things better in terms of our organization, lazar Djokic. It's so heartbreaking when his brother said he loved the sport that didn't love him back. But the thing is, is he loved CrossFit? His brother says he loved CrossFit, so maybe CrossFit can love him back, maybe CrossFit can do something that validates Jukic's love for CrossFit. Maybe we can do something about it. And you're right, as affiliate owners, it is our responsibility not to be like well, whatever, but to be engaged because they can. That will make a huge difference. You're right, I don't think the athletes have. They're not like mayflies where they're just gonna like die next week but I will go away next week. But I will say this I respect their opinions because they're closer to everything, the situation than any of us are, and I will listen to them. But you're right, at the end of the day, they don't have as much power as they might think they have. Right, they're not going to be able to change the sport as much as they think. It's like the I don't know NFL Players Association. Yeah, always Like they're going to make some. They have some, say, but not as much as they might think they want or have. And those guys are crying all the time. They are Underpaid I mean Millions of dollars.

01:07:15

Listen, people's lives are on the line here and I understand that, so I will never diminish that fact that one of theirs passed, and if CrossFit is found responsible, then they need to step up and address that in the biggest way. I just I don't know. I am now going from grieving and emotional despair to what is it that we can do to make things better? This should never be something that we should forget about, and I love CrossFit and I hope CrossFit loves me back too, and I want them to do the right thing here, and I don't know exactly what that right thing is, but I know right now. So far I haven't felt like it's exactly the right thing. Yeah.

David SyvertsenHost

01:07:59

I think that's a great way to end. It is that we love CrossFit. There's a lot of people that like CrossFit, but I do think there's a growing list of people that don't feel CrossFit loves them back. Whether are they grateful for us as a community? Are they grateful for us as affiliate owners? Are they grateful for us as fans of the sport? And maybe that needs to be. When they get past this investigation, that might need to be their plans. How do we show love back to the community and show them that we truly do care, and we talk about that as affiliate owners all the time. You know, what can we do to show, whether it's parties, events, conversations, and that's something that's 24-7, 365 as a staff and as an ownership is what can you do to show them that you truly do appreciate them and love them? So thank you, guys for listening.

01:08:47

We will probably not be on next week because Sam and I are heading out with a few other people are heading out to Birmingham for the games, for the Masters games, so because of that, I don't think we're going to have anything lined up for next Monday, but we will have Tracy on after the games, games, athlete from Bison and reflect on our. They're really looking forward to supporting Bob, joe and the legend staff. But yeah, if you guys have any comments, you can put them in our comments. You can message us. We always like feedback. There's a tough situation to really talk about and I can promise you from my perspective I won't judge good or bad Anyone's opinion on what we talked about and what your stance is on the subject. I do think it's important to have more conversations about it. All right, thank you guys. Thank you everybody for taking the time out of your day to listen to the Herd Fit Podcast. Be on the lookout for next week's episode.