S06E182: Pro Athlete Advocacy in CrossFit: Who is Withdrawing from the 2025 Games Season?

What happens when tragedy strikes at one of the most celebrated fitness events in the world? Hear from coaches David Syvertsen @davesy85 and Sam Rhee @bergencosmetic as we tackle the deeply felt repercussions of Lazar Đukić's tragic drowning at the CrossFit Games last year. This heartbreaking incident has not only fractured the CrossFit community but has also led to a substantial dip in Open registrations.

Join us as we examine the actions of prominent athletes like Pat Vellner, Annie Thorisdottir, and Chandler Smith, who have stepped back from the 2025 Games season, and understand the ripple effects this has on the sport, both as a business and a community built on personal conviction and diverse viewpoints.

The CrossFit community often blurs the lines between leaders and influencers, and we can't help but spotlight Chandler Smith's influential presence. Our time with key figures such as Patrick Vellner and Dave Castro gave us invaluable insights into the intricacies of leadership within CrossFit HQ. These interactions highlighted the camaraderie that the CrossFit Open fosters, even amidst recent turmoil. We explore how these events shape perceptions of CrossFit's leadership and discuss the need for discernment when choosing whom to follow.

As the future of CrossFit unfolds, the tension between CrossFit HQ and professional athletes advocating for change is palpable. Our conversation pivots to the evolving relationship between CrossFit affiliates and the overarching brand, stressing the importance of community involvement over competitive edge. We encourage open dialogue and mutual appreciation, urging listeners to consider multiple perspectives. By embracing diverse viewpoints, we can better navigate the challenges of leadership and change within the vibrant world of CrossFit. Join us for a thoughtful discussion that aims to enrich and reshape our approach to fitness, community, and mindset.

@crossfitbison @crossfittraining @crossfit @crossfitgames #crossfit #sports #exercise #health #movement #crossfitcoach #agoq #clean #fitness #ItAllStartsHere #CrossFitOpen #CrossFit #CrossFitCommunity @CrossFitAffiliates #supportyourlocalbox #crossfitaffiliate #personalizedfitness

S06E182: Pro Athlete Advocacy in CrossFit: Who is Withdrawing from the 2025 Games Season?

TRANSCRIPT

David SyvertsenHost

00:05

Hey everybody, welcome to the Herd Fit Podcast with Dr Sam Rhee and myself, coach David Syverton. This podcast is aimed at helping anyone and everyone looking to enhance their healthy lifestyle through fitness, nutrition and, most importantly, mindset. All right, welcome back to the Herd Fit Podcast. I am Coach David Syrton. I'm here with my co-host, dr and Coach Sam Rhee. We are a couple of weeks away from the CrossFit Open and we are really excited here at CrossFit Bison and most of the CrossFit community is really excited, but unfortunately it's become a very fractured component to the methodology, to the brand, to the worldwide community, and a lot of this stems from what happened. Not all. A lot of it stems from what happened last summer at the CrossFit Games in Fort Worth, texas, where Lazar Dukic, a games athlete, tragically drowned in the first event of the CrossFit Games, and we've done an episode on it. We don't need to give all the background color and but here we are months away from that, heading into the next season, you know, you could even say moving on, and a lot of changes have been made to the CrossFit sport, but some changes have not been made and because of that, you have a lot of athletes that are no longer going to participate in the CrossFit Games, and some huge names Some like pillars of CrossFit sport, some of like the founding fathers, if you will, of the CrossFit sport have decided to use their platform to tell the world that they are not going to do the games, and I think that filters down to a lot of people that they are not going to do the games, and I think that filters down to a lot of people. I've had people tell me that they disagree with how CrossFit has handled this thing and they're not going to sign up for the Open for that reason. Other people have told me they're not signing up for the Open because of other rules that CrossFit has come up with that they don't either politically align with or they simply just feel like they're kind of protesting their way to saying, hey, if you guys don't make changes, I will no longer support you, and that is the way our world works. Now, whether you agree with it or not, it is the way our world works. You can call it cancel culture, you can call it people taking a stand.

02:18

I think the worst thing to do is really pass judgment and look down on others for the way they feel, but I do want to have a discussion with Sam about this, and I actually haven't had much talk with Sam about what's been going on with this, and I'm actually looking forward to his thoughts because I very much value his opinion and his ability to look at things from an outside perspective and give really intelligent thoughts about it that make me think about my own personal perceptions and challenge me in some ways. But I also want to give this the opportunity to anyone that's listening to reflect on your own thoughts, because I think the number one thing we need to consider nobody's wrong for the way they feel or think. I think that that's most important, and I think that's one of the downfalls of society now is when you feel a certain way, you're almost afraid to express it because others that disagree with you just will automatically label you as wrong or disrespectful, where really you just feel a certain way. So I want to open the door to accepting the thoughts of others without pointing a fingers, but also not being afraid to share what you think, what you feel, and trying to look at it from every lens.

03:26

Sam, I'm sure you're very much aware of games, athletes stepping down from competing, whether in protests, retirement, combination of the two and you're also a gym owner now that has built a lot of their business on the CrossFit open and you don't want to pursue just business but you also want to make sure that you are kind of holding true to what you feel and what you think. So before I get into Chandler Smith's post that I'm going to read for you guys, I want you to share kind of where do you stand as a gym owner and person when it comes to competing in the CrossFit Open after what happened last year?

Sam RheeCo-host

04:07

There's clearly a lot of controversy and it's affected the Open. Let's just look at the numbers. They're down at least 40% in terms of Open registrations from last year. By estimate some people's estimate At least seven people have declared that they're out pro-athlete-wise, that are not just retiring or injured. That includes the seven that I have listed so far.

04:28

I checked Elisa Fuliano, emma Tall, emma McQuaid, annie Thor's daughter, luka Djukic, of course, pat Vellner you know that's Lazar's brother, pat Vellner and, as you mentioned, chandler Smith. Laura Horvath is still in. As far as I know, she hasn't said anything. But this also means that if open registrations stay where they are, games, prizes because they're based on the number of registrations is going to be down significantly, which is going to also affect athlete participation. So to me, I always want to look at it from different viewpoints. I try to understand why someone is coming from where they are, but there's no doubt that, regardless of what you think, the reality is open registrations are down. A number of prominent CrossFit athletes have decided not to participate this year and that's something that, regardless of what you think you have to address, think about as a gym owner, as an athlete, if you're CrossFit HQ. This is the reality.

David SyvertsenHost

05:34

Yeah, it's reality and I think that's really. You try to keep things as objective as possible and the numbers are down. Absolutely, the numbers are going to be down. Will they be down forever? I'm not sure. Okay, okay, but this isn't the first time we've seen something big happen that has effect open registrations. When they took away regionals, that took away the media team, the crossfit open took a huge hit. I think that was like the first of seven times people said crossfit's dying and then it just keeps coming back because the methodology isn't going anywhere. The games might go somewhere, but the methodology isn't going anywhere. Um, so before, might go somewhere, but the methodology isn't going anywhere.

06:09

So, before we get into some of our own personal thoughts and opinions from all perspectives and we'll do our best to consider all I'm going to read Chandler Smith's post to kind of give you guys, for those that have not read it, and if you don't have not read it, I would suggest going to his page. It's called Blacksmith, spelled with three Fs Blacksmith, m-i-f-f-f. That is his Instagram handle. Go read it, support it, share it, do whatever you got to do with it. But here it is. It's going to take about two minutes here. What's the point in having a voice if it gets stuck inside your throat. Today, I'm using my voice and following it up with action. I will not be competing in the 2025 CrossFit Games season.

06:45

To be clear, this is not because I don't respect the sport, the methodology or the community. Rather, it's because I don't think the brand, as it's currently established, has done enough to make me believe that it is serious about doing things differently in regards to giving athlete concerns around safety, structure and fairness the ability to affect what happens on the floor. Because of that, I don't think it makes sense for me personally to do the open. The truth is that not everything has a tidy one-sentence explanation. Nowhere is that more true for me than what I've experienced as a CrossFit athlete. Crossfit has been a huge force for good in my life and the lives of millions across the world. Many of us have experienced extreme community and support through our time in this space. However, many have also experienced equally strong rejection and disillusionment, especially in the wake of the brand's response to the death of Lazar Djukic. I am extremely thankful for what I've been given, but gratitude and blind loyalty are not the same thing. What CrossFit built has permanently changed fitness for the better, full stop. That said, I believe they've also made some pretty big missteps. Some of these perceived problems are unique to my personal relationship with these groups. Some are athlete-specific and others are more related to the community as a whole.

08:06

I've consistently remained hopeful that my small influence could bring about some of the changes I'd hope to see in the space, but at this point, there's too much I've experienced, seen and heard that tells me that the space maybe doesn't value its athletes as much as we value it. I've always desired to use competition as a vehicle for progress and growth for me and the community at large. To some, that's made me some like an emotional reactionary. However, I feel that my logic has always been consistent, because I've always had an internal why that has been bigger than any external response could be. As a competitor, my desire for growth has always looked like treating my work as a tool to provide for my family. However, as an athlete, I've also aimed to use any influence I had to try elevate both the sport of fitness and the science of training. Crossfit has given me and the other athletes opportunities that I couldn't have dreamed back in 2010, when I watched sanctionals online and started doing main site programming in my basement. I truly love the work, lessons and people I've met along the way and I've always viewed my decision to compete as a way to give back to these groups. The best way, I believe, to support this year is by using my absence as a vote towards challenging the CrossFit community to follow through on the methodology stated, focused towards continuous improvement. This year, jesse and I will primarily compete and support the World Fitness Project and High Rock Spaces with their missions in the fitness world but, as per usual, we'll likely end up competing a bunch, since that kind of is the point of training to get really fit.

09:44

If the last 10 years of the Open taught me anything, it was to believe that competition brings out the best in anyone. With that said, I truly hope the decisions of myself and others inside and outside of CrossFit ecosystem contribute to the better opportunities to both CrossFitters and the rest of the fitness space worldwide. Last one, I agree the sed rest of the fitness space worldwide. Last one, I agree the sentiments of the PFAA will be present to support those who choose to support the community through their participation in the games this season.

10:14

The Open is awesome. It gets people to go hard and it connects gyms around the world. If you want sign up, try hard, crush it. Some of my best friends, by choice or or by obligation, will be a part of the season and I want to be a pal worth having if I couldn't get behind cheering them on. If you're a CrossFitter who supported me because I was a games athlete, know that I'm still cheering for you and I hope you can do the same for me. That was a little long that to me. So Chandler to me. I really like Chandler a lot.

10:43

West Point.

10:43

My brother went to West Point I have a huge amount of respect for any cadets that go to any service academy Personal bias there. I've had a couple conversations with them that weren't positive but they ended up being positive. I sent them a note during the COVID during some of the racial divide that our country was going through. We had a really good back and forth conversation and he actually brought up the conversation we had years prior. Really respect this guy a lot and I think he's one of the best personalities we have in CrossFit. So I want to be clear about that.

11:13

Also. Incredibly smart and well-spoken guy. He also looks amazing. Yeah, I mean a freak almost looks fake. It's unbelievable. His father was a huge strength and conditioning coach in the NFL. Has that background Genetics there. But the guy also what I admire most about him, watching him, the guy tries hard. He is a try hard dude and I think he represents CrossFit in a lot of ways and I really do value his opinions on this. Something like that, sam, no matter how you feel, does something like that influence you to think differently?

Sam RheeCo-host

11:45

When he says gratitude and blind loyalty are not the same thing, that resonated with me as it did with many.

David SyvertsenHost

11:55

Now I think we need to be clear about this. We know some of what goes on behind the scenes across it. We do not know all I know that for a fact of what goes on behind the scenes across it. We do not know all I know that for a fact, and I've talked to Patrick Vellner about this, about Dave Castro, who I very much support and respect and appreciate for everything he's done and doing. But he also has expressed to me that there are things that have happened over the past few years that we're never going to know about. And I try to remove myself from my personal stance and say I would never want anyone to judge me here at Bison if you don't know all the situations and stories that have been going on here over the past 10 years and we've dealt with that, I know I've dealt with that where people just they don't know the truth about something, they find out 50% of it and they run with it and you at some point being in any position of any little or big leadership, you have to accept that and just move on. So, with that said, I do want to say that, as I read a post like this and I read some others. Any thought is on. There's another one posts like this, and I read some others. Amy Thordeson is another one.

13:07

The number one thought that comes to mind to me is that there is a significant difference between leaders and influencers. They are not the same. Influencers are not leaders. Some of them think they are and I think our society is very into following influencers for advice. Whether it's should I compete in the CrossFit Open, who should I vote for? If my influencer says this, I'm gonna follow them.

13:30

You know we have people that because Joe Rogan said vote for Donald Trump, they voted for Donald Trump. People said Taylor Swift, vote for Joe Biden, I'm gonna vote for Joe Biden. That, to me, is a really kind of a shortcoming of our society that we don't know how to differentiate between influencers and leaders. That that was my number one thought. Reading this is that Whether I agree with Chandler or not is kind of irrelevant. My opinion is not important to what Chandler does, but I do question his ability to look at this situation as a leader in CrossFit and make the best call in terms of how he's announcing what he's doing and what it can do as a ripple effect to the rest of the CrossFit community. That's where I currently stand on it. That's where I currently stand on it.

Sam RheeCo-host

14:14

Obviously, I respect Chandler Smith's opinion as I respect yours or anyone else's. You're right. My opinion for people has changed, both better and worse, depending on the more I get to know them or the more I get to learn about them, and I'm sure the same has happened for other people about me and I'm sure the same has happened for other people about me. I will say I can only go by what my own experiences are and what I can perceive, and I also have to go based on what other people are telling me that I trust. So it really has to be like if someone who I truly trust tells me something, I will put more credence into that than, obviously, someone who I don't really believe a whole lot in. And we've had our differences of opinion over the years.

15:06

Greg Glassman's controversy was a huge one, disaffiliating with CrossFit. There are things that people don't see eye to eye on all the time. In this case, I have seen some of what CrossFit HQ's leadership has been. We've met Don Fall multiple times. We've seen what Dave Castro's actions are and to me they are certainly the leaders and their actions speak louder than what they say. So if you look at what dave castro is doing, what don fall is doing.

15:49

I can understand why the professional athletes feel this is inadequate, and I understand listen, I might not feel this way because I'm not a professional athlete, but I see a lot of people out there the general consensus is CrossFit HQ is not doing enough, whether it's because of things that happened five years ago, not just the death that happened last year or just because of the death that happened last year. There is a groundswell of a lot of people, a lot, and I'm talking about I've talked to Aaron Hind, tegan Finn, all these people that have nothing to do in terms of being invested into CrossFit. But observers, perception is important, yeah, it is, especially when you're talking about a big industry. You may not think you're doing anything wrong, but if a whole bunch of people think you're doing wrong, guess what happens to your company? It goes down the tubes and I don't care. If you want to stick by your principles and say listen, we're not doing anything wrong, we're going down with the ship, so be it.

David SyvertsenHost

16:49

The ship is going down. The ship is going down.

Sam RheeCo-host

16:51

And so that's how I feel CrossFit HQ is going. They're sticking to their principles. I've never known Dave Castro to act differently than what I expected him to act. I feel like he's been consistent, whether you agree with him or don't. The other thing is CrossFit HQ, like I've always said, is uncompromising. They've been uncompromising from day one for everything, everything. They are not about to bend in this situation.

17:18

Like you said, they've weathered many, many, many storms, a lot of stupid mistakes they've made with the media team, with the Glassman thing. They have made so many mistakes and yet they have continued to go on the same policy that they always have been Never apologize, never make changes, move forward, and you know what that's gotten them pretty far, okay, like pretty far In this case. It doesn't mean it will make them succeed again, or it could permanently cripple them and they could always be a second rate fitness company from here on out. It's certainly possible. I don't know, I'm not a genie. I don't know I'm not a genie, I'm not a prophet, but I will say this when I see people that I respect you can call them influencers, thought leaders, people I trust, whatever you want to say when a whole lot of these people are starting to say this is not the issue. I understand why they're not going to let Dave Castro go.

18:14

Loyalty means something, but that also means you have to be willing to sacrifice your company, your revenue, your shares, everything, your position as an impact company in the world. The way you want to change things, that's fine. Crossfit can become a fringe company. I just saw what WFP, the World Fitness Project, is doing. The 20 athletes on each side that they have are everybody. You name it Laura Horvath, danny Spiegel, haley Adams, danielle Brandon, ariel Lowen, ricky Gerard BKG, jason Hopper, krennikov Vellner, chandler Smithiros. These, it's the face of CrossFit sports.

18:57

They are leaders in terms of growing in a different direction, so they might be thought leaders in the CrossFit space, but they're also leaders in the fitness space because they're creating their own competition and, who knows, maybe that'll go better. Some of these people are are competing in the announcement, but they're also part of WFP.

David SyvertsenHost

19:17

Yeah, there's a lot out there right now that it's pretty known that you can do both, and most of them are doing both Right.

Sam RheeCo-host

19:23

So I think we're at a critical juncture. I don't think CrossFit HQ is going to change. I do think these pro athletes are trying to find a better way to navigate, because these are people that are making their lives with CrossFit. They are grateful to CrossFit, but I can also see them being very upset that they've never had any kind of role in terms of helping determine what CrossFit as a pro sport is and making it better. So, in that regard, that's what they're trying to do Now. Whether or not that's right or wrong, I don't know. I think we're going to have to wait a couple of years and see, but I don't think CrossFit HQ is going to change. The issue is is how does that affect us as affiliates, and I would be very interested to hear what your opinion is about that. That being said, it frustrates me that CrossFit HQ it's too late.

David SyvertsenHost

20:15

they've never been open-minded and I really wish on some level because that's who my personality is in terms of, like, trying to be inclusive yeah, they've never been that yeah, I, we've, we've been, I've been rather vocal about an honest and, I think, fair that I have been angry at hq multiple times for decisions they made, and let's just keep it to the open. I mean, let's forget the first six years where you sent an email asking a question. You never got anything back. Like we'll keep that to the side. Just all the different standards think about the handstand push-up standards, think about taping the floors and what that did, not even to us but to affiliates that were half our size. Like, um, the 20 minute amrap with a max thruster at the end of the workout. You can't do that in a class and it really throws us off. Like what's the point? Like why not just make it 15 minutes?

21:04

like shuttle runs yeah, shuttle runs like those little things make a big difference. And it there are again. That's the word that always comes back to your mind is it's uncompromising, it it's our show, you know, fall in line or not. And that is where it gets dangerous, because you can't just constantly fall in line, especially if you don't fully trust the top. I mean, if we were doing 100 max snatch, 100 max clean max ring muscle ups and 60 minute EMOMs every single week for a year straight, at some point that people are gonna be like bro, I know, I'm not doing this, I'm canceling my membership.

21:38

People will cancel a membership here and this is where you can relate, because it's they don't agree with the programming, they don't agree with the coaching, they don't agree with the direction, they don't agree with the pricing, everything. I mean it's almost. It's almost ironic in that what people complain about CrossFit leadership can also be trickled down to any affiliate that either struggles or loses members at some point. At the end of the day, you just no longer feel like supporting that brand, that company, and I've experienced that as an affiliate owner. I still will. As long as I'm doing this, I'll always feel that, and you have to find the line. Of this is what I believe in, but I also want to be someone that listens to others.

Sam RheeCo-host

22:21

You do that and you've made decisions based on the feedback and what you think people, we, we do that, we always have yes and like that's why we always listen.

David SyvertsenHost

22:32

We can't listen to everyone, because if you listen to everyone, they start running into each other and they don't agree with each other and I'm like who do you choose? Well, that's why you're a good leader is.

Sam RheeCo-host

22:39

you have to take all of that input into account and then decide so yeah.

David SyvertsenHost

22:42

So I do think there is some lack of humility from the top. So I do want to go on record saying that I don't want to say who, but I do think there has always been a lack of humility. For me it's Dave Kass. Go into private conversations too much but.

22:52

I remember saying that all of this talk always centers around what you want, what you're thinking, but you never talk about the affiliates. And it's been proven scientifically, objectively one of the biggest correlations to an affiliate success is open involvement. With that said, I know there's a lot of affiliates out there that are successful that don't push the open. I know I get it, but I'm going to come from our lens.

Sam RheeCo-host

23:36

No but that's true. Push-press data, push-press data.

David SyvertsenHost

23:39

I believe in that wholeheartedly. If you can get people behind the open, it helps your business, it helps push the methodology, it helps improve lives. That's what we're doing. I think that's been proven over and over. We're not trying to get rich and make money off people. We're trying to impact lives. And if we start getting people to no longer do the open, it starts shortening our window a little bit. It limits our potential.

24:03

And I do want to ask some of these guys that are leaving do you guys think about that at all? Do you think about the affiliates? Because to me, you could tell this is what Cross is trying to lean into now, with what CashRare is doing is leaning into the affiliates, and I do think they've gotten away from that. That's a mistake. I think leadership made and they're trying to circle back now. This should have always been about the affiliates. It should have never left the affiliates. That is the sauce, that is the secret to CrossFit success as a brand. Make it about the affiliates.

24:39

And what happened as the games grew? It became about the games and you're talking I'm talking right now from a lens. I joined CrossFit because I watched CrossFit games. Brian DeCardo, who I had on a couple weeks ago, joined CrossFit because he watched CrossFit games. That's a lot of people, but most people do not care about the games. If I went to our gym right now a huge CrossFit gym that loves it and said, hey, who made the podium last year at the games? I don't think we'd have three people that could tell us what place did Chandler Smith come in and what place did Vellner come in? How did they do at Wadapalooza? I don't think you'd have two people that would know the answer to that. But they are the ones. Those are the ones that are influencing the potential success of our gym.

25:21

Someone gave me an idea two days ago from our gym. Didn't get his permission to put his name out there, but he said maybe this is actually the end of the CrossFit Games, which is a good thing. Maybe the Open now only becomes about the affiliates. Maybe the advancement of getting to the next stage is no longer about what training program you're on, how many times you work out per day. Did I leave my job to pursue this fantasy of being a games athlete? Just work out five days a week, join the community, have fun, get tested in the Open, move on to the next year.

25:50

Community, get tested in the open. Move on to the next year Community Cup. That's what the Open's about. You do the Open, you do the Community Cup. There is no more games, there is no more quarterfinals, and I'll tell you what. As a competitor, that would make me upset, but I'll find other avenues to compete in if I want to. But what it does as an affiliate owner, as a coach, it's what we've talked about when cross it changed the quarterfinal format. It's I. I actually bet I've been thinking about this non-stop since we said this on the podcast. It probably would make cross it a healthier training regimen for people if they stop competing or stop chasing the unicorn.

Sam RheeCo-host

26:25

I do think that I'm looking at it through your lens and I will say this Um, I honestly think the I think you're right the games has driven affiliate growth in the past. I don't think it will be a factor in the future, whether it's because of this or because the games are just irrelevant and people don't care anymore, whatever, or they're just so far off the beaten path no one it's. It's no longer aspirational to be close. Yeah, like it's. They're just different animals. They're like aliens from another planet that you're watching, right? So so that's that. So my guess is is that in the future, for whatever reason, the games and pro athletes will be less instrumental in terms of a factor driving people to or away from affiliates? The issue really is and for affiliates, crossfit has done the worst job marketing over the past 10 years in terms of driving affiliate growth. I still and I talk to people and they hammer this truth home Anyone outside the CrossFit space who hears about CrossFit is like it's dangerous. This is bad. Someone died.

27:43

Yeah, you get too bulky. This is like I'm going to get hurt and they have done a piss poor job changing that narrative.

27:54

For all of us who are within the space, yeah, we're drinking the Kool-Aid, but for everybody else out there, hasn't. Hasn't made a dent, hasn't made the singlest smallest dent. People are no longer using CrossFit in their names as affiliates. They're dropping that. They're just going as strength and conditioning this, that or the other thing, and I've talked to multiple people about this and it blows me away that people aren't leaning face forward into the name CrossFit, because it actually is a detriment in a lot of situations. Now, that being said, as CrossFit bison, as a performance-oriented sport as someone who cares about performance.

28:33

This might pose a dilemma for you for a couple of reasons. Let's take a look at it. You started, we started out last, which is this new longevity gym which will be starting soon, which has generated tremendous interest, tremendous interest, interest, tremendous interest. If CrossFit is no longer performance oriented in the way that it has been for us over the past 10 years and we are filled with I don't want to put anyone down but people who just don't care about performance. Yeah, they just want to move for an hour. They come in. You know it's not like oh, let me see if I can do more. Let me just do whatever it is I can, and we have plenty of athletes like that. But now, instead of the people who are like you know what, let me, let me push a little bit harder, let me do a little bit more. We're just filled with just tons of classes of people who are you know, wouldn't be any difference than, say, an F-45 or an Orange Theory Just people who are there.

29:33

I think that would drive you nuts as an owner. I think you would look at it financially as a success but philosophically as a failure If you don't have any athletes that actually are caring about how much progression they're making. You know me well, and so I think we philosophically are at a crossroads too. I think you're trying to handle it by building a second gym. That that sort of addresses some of that. But on the other hand, how are we going to go grow CrossFit when it continually seems to be almost like a? Like you are a loyalist, like you truly believe in it, and I am too. I believe in the methodology. I'm never going to do anything other than CrossFit, but I also feel like into the general public, it hurts us in in a huge way. It it does it limits growth.

David SyvertsenHost

30:19

And you, you could say, and I'm, I am also as much as I am a loyalist. I'm also I. I like to take blame myself, I just do. I look inward. I always say like are we doing a good enough job? It's not. Is CrossFit doing a good enough job for us to grow our gym? It's, are we doing. Am I doing a good enough job to help the gym grow? Like, if we go down to membership, I'm never like, oh, you guys are just not doing a good job. It's like, hey, I need to do better, I need to fix, and like I'm always going to be like that. It's a blessing and a curse, trust me. But I, with us growing a new brand, a new gym from scratch in the same building as our CrossFit gym. I have uttered the words before that I could see it being bigger than our CrossFit space. But I am also looking outward when I say that I am paying attention to what people say and feel.

31:07

I believe, as Chandler has said in his post, I believe in competition. But I always feel like I've been misunderstood from day one in this regard and I still think even people that are close to me, they don't understand how I feel about this. I believe in competition because it brings out the best in yourself. It can get you to your peak. It can make you do things that you don't want to do. It can make you to your peak. It can make you do things that you don't want to do. It can make you be more disciplined. It can just truly make you the best version of yourself. At no point in there am I saying where you rank. Right Like Sam on let's see, in next week's episode we're going to talk about 0.1 scores and ranks and I remember and as you're going through my score, I'm like, yeah, I crushed that one. And you're like scores and ranks.

31:51

And I remember, as you're going through my score, I'm like, yeah, I crushed that one. And you're like, you came in 28th, 100th in the world. Like, at the end of the day, I didn't, I got crushed. There isn't an athlete in our gym that crushes workouts Like you. Go put yourself in a worldwide rank. Like you got spanked. You got bent over and spanked like a little kid in every workout you've ever done.

32:07

When you're looking at a competitive nature. But you know what the competition did. It made you push to your limit. And guess, guys, genetics have physical limitations that put us your old injuries that you had when you were growing up or in your early days of playing football. They're going to creep back up. We know that.

32:25

But you know what competition does. It makes you really push to see what you can do and I think the second you stop pursuing that, especially the older you get, if it goes, it disappears fast. It really is a sudden nasty drop and then at some point you look at yourself and like, dude, what happened? And then you fall in line with everyone else in the world. It's like, yep, I'm done, I give up, you still have 20, 30 years left in life. And like then it really gets bad. I think the older you get 20, 30 years left in life, I'm like then it really gets bad. I think the older you get, there's actually more responsibility to be competitive, not to beat others, not to put your self-worth in where you rank, because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter where you rank. It means that you are trying as hard as you can in and out of the gym to be the healthiest version of yourself. That's why I believe in the performance side of it.

33:12

And the second you take away something that is from above the open and you fracture it and you get people to start thinking maybe I shouldn't do this, maybe my influencer goals are, are my influencers that I look up to aren't doing it and now I'm not going to do it? I don't think they understand. And even the athletes that are backing away from this, both at Bison and at the game's level, I don't think you understand the ripple effect and you can tell yourself you don't actually care that much. I know that's that would be the answer. A lot of people would say, like Dave, yeah, I don't want to do the open, but I don't care about it anymore. Okay, cool. There are going to be negative ripple effects that come from that, I guarantee it, and I also think that some have lost scope of what the Open is beyond the competitive side of it the community, the support.

34:00

We have an episode coming out next week about some of the best moments our gym has ever had. If I had to give a top 100 moment of the Bison history, 80 of them were probably from the Open. In all gym history, I bet 80% of our top moments have come from the Open, or quarterfinals or semifinals or the games. We're losing that.

Sam RheeCo-host

34:19

I will say this I think that these influencers why do you think these people are doing this? They're trying to put pressure on CrossFit HQ to make changes. Now the problem is Like they did in 2020. Right, right, and they did make changes at that time Are they happy about it.

David SyvertsenHost

34:32

I don't know, did it end up being a good thing?

Sam RheeCo-host

34:36

I think I don't know, but I will say this that's complicated. I don't think CrossFit HQ is going to change. Let me put this Based on these comments and the withdrawals of these pro athletes, long term or just this year? For sure, this year they're not going to make any difference and it probably won't make any difference in the long term. So these athletes have to figure out now okay. Well, we didn't make any dent in what CrossFit HQ's policies are. What are we going to do? We lost all our leverage. That's where the WFP comes into play. The unfortunate byproduct of this clash between the pro athletes and CrossFit HQ is the open. It's the affiliate, it's us. Yes, okay. So that's where I stand. Looking at it, I understand where both of them are coming from. All it does is it hurts the children, us.

David SyvertsenHost

35:23

Like when the parents fight or whatever you want to call it. It's like parents who get divorced. Right, right, right right.

Sam RheeCo-host

35:27

So what is it that we can do as affiliates? Well, we can certainly work to grow the open, because that actually does benefit us, literally, financially it does. And then, secondly, what moments can we take away from it? And I will say this I want a balance of performance as well as longevity and health. And I will tell you, the win that I took away from this is the exact perfect moment of what this felt like for me as a coach last week. So I had a little seven minute AMRAP to coach and then, which was a warm up, and then a 12 minute like work up to a heavy snatch. And I have a lot of like. People don't like snatching, especially the casual athlete, and I told them listen, learn new skills. That's what you're supposed to do as you get older. Get better at something, work on it. That helps your brain, it helps what you're doing. I use the term neuroplasticity, which a lot of people made fun of me for.

David SyvertsenHost

36:22

They love it. Though they love it, I have people comment about it.

Sam RheeCo-host

36:32

They love it. So you know, like I'm old, I need to keep pushing. It's evidence, there's strong evidence, that you have to keep pushing your brain in order to use it or lose it. So there's a guy in my class and he is a big shot network executive. He doesn't need this for any other reason other than he's trying to get fit. And so he comes like he's doing the snatch, where he's like Sam, I hate snatches, I never liked this movement. But you know, you know what. I'm going to give it a try. Can you watch me and make sure I'm trying to do like the right thing here? And so he's doing it and I'm like, yeah, you're getting better, like you're not pressing out here. Your second pull is, like you know, nicely accelerating with your first.

37:12

And I was like that's great and he's working on it. Then, of course, he goes too heavy and then it just falls to crap and I was like you got to go down on the way. You got to go down. But he sat there and it was like you know what it was like leading someone to someone, and they're like you know what, I don't want to do it, but I'm going to try it. And as a coach coach I was like yay, that's the moment, yes, and then of course, like five minutes early he's like I gotta go pick up my kids.

37:33

Bye, but that's okay. Like for those seven minutes he really pushed himself and imagine he didn't right. And if he had just sat there and just like sat on a bike for you know 15 or 20 minutes, like what would he have gotten out of that? Like, even if a Peloton coach had said let's go.

37:51

Like nothing Like this is. As a coach, I was like he took away a little bit here and next time it'll be a little bit more and a little bit more, and we're kind of like getting him into it and you're applying that to the Open.

David SyvertsenHost

38:05

Yes, like that is the Open, that is the Open, that's the open. So I do want to be clear before we wrap this up that we don't. I don't look down on anyone that protests against CrossFit by not doing the open, both on the local level, here at Bison, or at the games level, like Chandler, the post that we read. So I just want to be clear. You could end it that way. I also want there to be more consideration. If you're kind of trying to reflect and it's like, all right, am I thinking about this right or wrong, I would say, remove what you initially think and just look at it from the lens of the affiliate, look at it lens from the athlete and look at it from the lens of CrossFit HQ. Because as much as we say, they don't change. I've talked to Dave Castro. I've talked to Dave Castro. I've talked to Adrian Bosman. I remember, dude, I I don't know what firing him or putting him in jail is is gonna make you. I I hope it doesn't make you feel better if that's what, like if these guys would have stayed and crossed it if Dave Castro got fired, I I question that character motive right there too, because, if you want, we often feel when something goes wrong. Here's a nice scenario. Sam brought this up before. We'll just bring it up again. Our running right at Bison. Let's say, someone gets hit by a car, they die. There won't be a single person on the face of the earth that feels worse about it than me, not even the coach of that class. That person will feel bad. It will be on me. I will wear that for the rest of my life and to me when I look at Dave, when I look at Adrian, they're never going to get over that and I hope that people don't want that as the result. When something bad happens, we often whether it be right away or at some point, you want someone to feel guilty, you want justice, you want people to be in trouble, and I don't think it's our jobs to put that on some others.

40:06

Dave Krasho was on a paddle board looking for this guy's body in the water. All of you guys were sitting on your phones at work watching it. You know that guy was looking for a dead body at the CrossFit Games. The guy's been to war, he's been a Navy SEAL. I think he has a deeper level of connection to life and death than most people understand, and they have made some moves with their athlete council, which includes Rich Froning and some other really big names in the space. I don't know what else they've done. I know that there's a lifeguard 10 feet away from the guy that drowned. I do know that. Was it good enough? I don't know. I've never run an event like that, but it's not like.

40:45

In my opinion, there have been changes that have been made. They just haven't been as strong as what others want them to be, and I want to be clear that, as much as you want to say, this is my protest I'm taking a stand. What do you actually want out of it and can you actually justify it in your head? And do you actually think that's going to solve all of these problems? Because weigh that versus weigh the ripple effect of you leaving the games and what it can do to everyone that kind of looks up to you and follows you because you're an influencer. I hope that you guys can weigh those kinds of things in your head before you make a decision like this. So, sam, do you have any closing thoughts on it? Well put.

Sam RheeCo-host

41:25

Punitive versus productive. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you.

David SyvertsenHost

41:29

All right, thank you guys. A little bit of a heavy topic there, but I do think it's important for us to address it and be open to all ideas and, most importantly, don't don't join the crowd that judges someone else for thinking something other than you. Try to look at it from their perspective, appreciate the perspective and honestly have more conversations about it, thank you, thank you, everybody, for taking the time out of your day to listen to the Herd Fit Podcast. Be on the lookout for next week's episode.