S01E18 - Eating for Sport vs. Eating for Health

Our next episode is with guest Kayla Simpson @_kayla.simpson, fellow coach @crossfitbison. If you are a high level athlete - do you have to eat differently than someone focuse primarily on health?We start a deep dive into how much and what kinds of foods when you focus on athletic performance versus overall general health. How do you optimize your diet for one or the other?

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S01E18 EATING FOR SPORT VS HEALTH

[00:00:00] David Syvertsen: And welcome back to the HerdFit podcast. Coach David Syvertsen with Dr. Sam Rhee and another very special guest. I think she, we actually propped her hair, her chair higher than us too. So we look ultra short. She was like a queen. It looked like we're on the game of Thrones right now. This is status status.

This is coach Kayla Simpson. Kayla, thank you for. Thank you for having me. We have a, a bunch of different topics that we're going to talk to in regards to nutrition. That is Kayla specialty, but before we get into topic, number one we want just Kayla, just give us a quick, very quick rundown of. Who you are in regard to CrossFit and who you are in regard to nutrition and why should we be listening to,

[00:00:42] Kayla Simpson: well, let me, let me tell you. So I am, I joined CrossFit about seven years ago. I was introduced to it by a really good friend and coach Eric Ellingson. And I came from. Yes. So I came to CrossFit with zero experience pretty mediocre athlete at best.

[00:01:03] David Syvertsen: Do you remember your first workout?

[00:01:04] Kayla Simpson: Because I do it was thrusters. There was thrusters in it and it was, it was like 15.1,

[00:01:10] David Syvertsen: John 15.5 and it was 21 18 15, 12, 9, 6, 3. Thrusters at 65 bar phasing, burpees. That was the word it's one of the worst.

[00:01:22] Kayla Simpson: And that was my first, my first intro to CrossFit. Wow. Yes. And so, I mean, really, I found my passion for.

Exercise through CrossFit, I would say versus sport. So that led me down the path of becoming an athletic trainer and then morphing, basically the two together to be CrossFit coach because of you guys and then really leading it to a bigger career of athletic training and then into nutrition.

So diving into the nutrition world. After I found that these things go hand

[00:01:56] David Syvertsen: in hand. Cool. Yeah, they absolutely do. That's really what we're going to be talking about. You just got done with school. Yes.

[00:02:03] Kayla Simpson: So my undergrad is in athletic training and my just finished, finished my master's degree in nutrition and dietetics.

And so I will be sitting for my RD exam. I registered dietician exam. In the next month or so.

[00:02:19] David Syvertsen: Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Kayla, Kayla. Resource for us in this room, but also anyone that's listening. You know, we can all go get, and I have a couple, you know, your online or weekend nutrition, certs, which, you know, they have value, but to have someone that went to school and I've seen some of the stuff that she has to do, papers, tests, assignments, years, and years of work, you know, having a resource like Kayla around us has been a huge benefit and will continue to be a huge benefit.

And I think that there's a, she has. A lot of nutrition, specialty people don't have the experience with CrossFit that she does. And a lot of people that have the experience with CrossFit don't have the nutrition experience that she does. So it's rare to find someone like this, and that's one of the reasons why we wanted to have her on that.

She gets it. I think some people that you talk to in regard to nutrition, they don't really completely understand what we do. And vice versa. I think a lot of people that do cross it and can coach across the class really well, they don't completely understand the, all the ins and outs of nutrition. So I just think that Nick, Kayla is a huge resource that we hope can help all you guys out.

No matter where you're at with nutrition, whether you're at the CrossFit with health, fitness, exercise, all that good stuff. So, topic number one. Is going to be eating for sport verse health and Sam and I have talked about sport first health CrossFit. And I think, you know, it's almost like a topic that we love to talk about because we still don't really have the objective measurements of, of the difference between the two.

But it's a great conversation because I think it inspires a lot. And what do you think? Yeah, I

[00:03:49] Sam Rhee: mean, I think for most of us, we, you know, we always come back to this topic because we ourselves are wrestling with it all the time. Right. And I think a lot of our athletes are also wrestling with it all the time.

But the thing about it is, is that eating and nutrition is so fundamental for all of it. And the problem is, is that in medicine, unfortunately, Nutritional science is awful. I can tell you as a physician, the amount of knowledge that we learned in medical school and in residency in regards to nutrition was.

Less than almost any other topic yet. It's one of the most important, and I know you saw in the hospital, how important, you know, the role nutritionists play for patients? I think it's gotten even bigger and I think I'm really excited if I was going into nutrition right now, I'd be really excited because I think the research and the study and the outcomes and the new findings that they're coming out with, especially not just for sick people, but for healthy people, for metabolism, for.

Elderly people for performance. These are things that I think in the next 10 to 15 years, we're going to see an explosion of great protocols and new science and things that will flip traditional nutritional thinking on its head. And that's why I'm excited that we're talking about it today, as

[00:05:11] Kayla Simpson: well as about Sam, that brings up a great point.

In the hospital. I actually saw, I saw a lot of our physicians rely on us for nutrition, education in general and just nutrition recommendations. They really look to us. They lean on us and that. A really awesome thing to experience and something that I didn't know before I started nutrition school per se, is depending upon what you study in your degree or throughout your experience to become a doctor, you could get one class or one semester, not even a semester, right on nutrition and.

It blows my mind when people come back from their doctor's appointment and they have nutrition advice from their doctor and it is completely against the grain of what I would recommend. And it's. It's kind of scary,

[00:06:10] David Syvertsen: outdated, right? I mean,

[00:06:12] Sam Rhee: you should always talk to your physicians as always. And of course, this is all for us to just help people.

It's not, we're not giving you straight medical advice to follow a hundred, you know, just you, Y this is all information for you to use, but you're right. Just like you have many doctors who still say, oh, you have an injury. Don't move Ryan bed. And, and there are still many people who do that. There are still people who are like, okay, this is what you should be eating and doing when it is completely outdated, outmoded and not, not what we as athletes should be thinking.

Right.

[00:06:42] Kayla Simpson: But it is getting better. I will say that.

[00:06:45] David Syvertsen: So, the first thing I really want to dive into in regard to nutrition, when it comes to sport for south, and again, a lot of. Things that Kayla will probably give to us, probably have a lot of parallels between the two. But again, I do think there are subtle differences.

The first thing I want to talk about is volume of eating. I think this is one of the most difficult things, and we'll probably do a later episode with you on if those that don't want to get into macro counting. And how much should you eat? How much should you not eat? When should you eat? The volume of eating, I think is probably one of the biggest issues people have.

And it goes in both directions. I think a lot of people under eat for what we do here, whether you're in the sport or health, but especially in the sport, I have a lot of people that want to compete, right. They'll come and do a hard workout and then they won't eat when they get home. They won't eat till six hours later.

They're. You know, 1400 cows in a day and they're doing two, three workouts a day. And at some point you're just going to have zero fuel and you're going to just get down on yourself. You're going to feel like you can't recover. You can't perform. But also on the other side, there's obviously people in this country and maybe even some of the shin that they overeat.

And I think there's a question. How much should you be eating? And you know, how can one go about figuring that

[00:07:54] Kayla Simpson: out? Good. The question. And it's going to look. Maybe not severely different, but it will look a little different for eating for high level sport and competition versus eating for regular day-to-day life.

Right. I agree. I see the volume of food people severely underestimate how much they need, right. Especially when it comes to, if you're eating. Fruits vegetables, whole grains. You need a lot of those protein, lean sources of protein to fuel your body, right. And to provide enough energy. So if you're used to eating really high calorically, dense, processed food, you're going to need less of it.

And then when you switch over to eating more of it, A cleaner quote, unquote, style of eating. You need the volume of food you need to replace of is an, is enormous. It's a lot more than people think. So practical numbers to work with. I'm going to give an example, cause you said 1400 calories. I mean, that happens a lot and.

A toddler needs 1200 calories, really toddlers, 1200 calves. That is their that's their baseline. That's up to grow. And the amount of times I see women, men sitting around that point and saying like, oh, I'm here for weight loss. You need to eat more, but you just need to eat more and specifics a just to Just to get a bigger, bigger picture.

If you take your body weight and convert it into kilograms, so divided by 2.2, your body weight divided by 2.2 and the ballpark range, the recommended for the average adult is take that your body weight in kilograms and multiply it by a range of 25 to 30. So times by 25 to 30, that's a ballpark range.

Even for an athlete, maybe it's a little bit higher for an athlete, but you're talking calories, calorie wise. Calorie-wise okay. So it's a lot higher than people think. And then for people who are overeating and going way beyond that, beyond that, it's all right. So I need to eat fruits and vegetables, but now they're not eating enough of it because they're so less calorically dense, right?

[00:10:25] David Syvertsen: Yeah. And I might just give like a real life. Example of that is I can remember when I first started counting macros years ago, I want to say the first time I did, it was 2015, 2016, and I was a big process food guy for a long time, even like the foods that, and you felt okay about it because the box that it was heart healthy or as low fat or blah, blah, blah.

Right. And you know, the second you've replaced, you take that food out and you replace the, with vegetables and rice and avocados and, and lean chicken. Right. You, you get to a point where like, you're eating, you felt like you're eating half the amount of food that you were so like that like it's, if you have a pile of food over here, that's processed food and it's not that much.

Right. So you feel good about it? You take, all right, that's out. I'm going to take all this healthy food, same amount of food. But then you look at the calories, you start writing down these macros. You're like, you're not even halfway. And that's when it comes into like a lot of people freak out when they hear they have to eat more because so many people have a goal of like, they just want to be 10 pounds lighter.

It's going to make all the difference. And honestly, you can still get 10 pounds lighter by eating more. And I think it like the, the knowledge slash. Critical thinking that goes into people's diets about like, I really think that they're only looking at how much they're eating on a calorie perspective.

They're not only looking at how easily digestible these foods are. So I think that's like something that everyone. If there's one thing that from this episode I want you to take away from is you take that processed food out. You're going to be eating more food 100%.

[00:11:58] Sam Rhee: And let me ask you this. So if you have a client and let's suppose they are, they feel like they're 15 to 20 pounds overweight and they just don't like the way they look, they feel heavy and they say, I feel fat when you go through this process of developing.

Plans and, you know, because maybe they tried it themselves. Maybe they said, okay, this is what I feel like I should be eating. If I just eat 200 calories less a day or 300 calories, less than what I should normally be eating, I'll be at a deficit. I should be able to lose weight. Does that work?

[00:12:35] Kayla Simpson: It doesn't always work.

It works to a degree initially because a calorie deficit, if you are in one, it will work. It will, you will lose a certain amount of weight in that period of time. But the question is, is it sustainable? What are the other things going on in your life? What are your, what's your water intake? Like? What are your stress factors?

What about your sleep? And it's more than just calories. It's the nutrients within the calories. It's also quality. So the quality of your food matters. It doesn't have to be all organic 100% of the time, but the micronutrients within the food also play a role for everything else in your body for all your organ functions, your brain.

To things work to make your body function. Optimally, not even optimally, just even at baseline to make you feel good. Yeah. It's it's more than calories for weight loss because all of those things.

[00:13:42] Sam Rhee: Yeah. I agree with you a thousand percent on that. The other thing is every time I've tried to do calorie deficits, I rebound my appetite.

I just start making poor food choices because I'm just so hungry. Yeah. And your body just fights you. You can do it for a little while, but you can't really do that for a long, long period of time. Right

[00:13:59] David Syvertsen: now, let me ask. So if I want to ask you a question, I've always wanted to ask your opinion on this because.

Part of me just feels like it makes sense. But the other part of me says, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. You're in this for sport. All right. So let's say you have a client that's in this for sport and they listened to the Matt Frazier podcast on Joe Rogan. And you know, you're, you're talking about how he.

Right. After a workout would pound either Coca-Cola and, or eat a Snickers bar. And he like pound like within five minutes and I get, you know, replenishing all your stores, but give some thoughts on that, that you wouldn't necessarily recommend that for someone that's here for health, right? Like you got that.

Right. But for someone that's in it for sports, You know, that's where I think one of the biggest differences, like what did I do after that? You know, I, he was big on the Gatorade powder and putting, I think. Big three big scoops and says five ounces of water. So like you're just literally drinking Gatorade sludge.

And like, you go look at the contents and like, this is 170 grams of sugar that I'm putting into my body. And I tried it a few times. I, I felt sick immediately and give some thoughts. Someone that's in this for sport, the, how much they need to put attention into a Rhee punishing with via carbs and the

[00:15:16] Kayla Simpson: protein.

I love this one. I always, I want to preface this by. I want to give the evidence-based approach to this and also my professional evidence-based opinion, but your body. So for replenishing after workout for carbohydrates specifically, And for sugar, this also goes for sugar in that moment. Your body cannot tell if it's sugar coming from a Snickers bar or sugar coming from five apples, right in that moment.

Right? Because your, your body, if it's just plain sugar, let's say you literally took the Gatorade powder that had a lot of sugar and you just mix it with water down at, after workout. Your carbohydrate stores will be replenished. In that moment and your body can't really tell which sugar it's coming from.

So sure you got the job done over time, doing that over and over and over again. What else is in that Snickers bar? You have other chemicals, you have other things that maybe you can't pronounce on the label. It's going to cause that refined sugar over time. Serious large amounts inflammation. It's going to it's there's other ingredients within those things that now your body can't tell right now, your body's slowing down.

Now you have GI discomfort. Yeah. Because there's also a certain amount of carbohydrates, carbohydrates, and sugar that once you exceed that, now you're working. GI discomfort and bloating and gas, and then you can't get to your next workout, right? For the average person. Yeah. Matt Fraser. He's also top one, not the top 1% of the world.

But my main takeaway on that is no, I would not recommend Downing a Coke and Downing a Snickers bar. Post-war. But the idea of replenishing carbohydrates is important. Post-workout now it's the quality that you would want to focus on, especially if you're fueling for sport, specifically, some sort of carbohydrate, but look at the other benefits of the micronutrients coming from things like maybe it's a sugar substance.

That's fine because you need it and it's quick and it's fast. So something more along the lines of raisins or fruit or bananas, or even if it is sugar, like sugar is not the devil, it's just how much you have of it. Right. And if you have another, there's plenty of other electrolyte packets that are lower in sugar that have the appropriate amount of Magnesium and sodium and the other PD light baby, but there are other forms of sugar that are going to be better for you and more sustainable in the long run and better for your overall health and Oregon's and arteries.

[00:18:16] David Syvertsen: Right. Right. So it's not just about bouncing back, like you listened to that. You listened to that Matt Frazier podcast, like, okay. Yeah. So I have a workout that I have another one an hour later. Like just go down the Snickers and again, the short window is yes, it makes sense. Yeah. Well, but

[00:18:32] Sam Rhee: it doesn't right.

Cause Kayla May, it makes total sense to me. So I wouldn't, I wasn't able to parse it until you put it in those terms. Yes. Replenishing your carbohydrates. Good concept. Replenishing it with a new. Not necessarily the best form of replenishing your carbohydrates, as you said, there's a lot of junk in there.

It's also when you have a, a large sugar load, that's so dense, the reason why you feel sick and I feel sick is that's a huge osmotic load to have that ginormous bolus of sugar. That's why something like Pedialyte, I mean, you might have to drink larger quantities of it, right? But your S your gut will probably tolerate that better.

And as Kayla says, it's not just a single workout. It's workout after workout after workout. Now, Matt Frazier work, he was championed for five years in a row, but if he did that every time he worked out for 10 or 15 or 20 years, as most of us want to be able to work out for that long, right. Is that as Kayla said, sustainable, right.

No, there's a lot of gunk in that stuff, including artificial colors and flavors and all sorts of other things, you know, additives that are not great. And

[00:19:41] David Syvertsen: but we do agree that that we should be trying to replenish soon after you work out, right? Like whether your sport or health right. To, to work out and then not.

For four or five hours after is a foolish decision. Probably just as foolish as Downing Snickers, right? I agree. Absolutely. Yeah, because they do need to reapply replenished, and I think that's one thing. I think a lot of people, especially our morning athletes, I've been told by a few of them, they'll go through a nasty workout four or five days a week.

Don't need. And, you know, what, what are some of the things that, you know, inside, like internally, what happens at some point when you are not replenishing and whether it be car protein for that much time after

[00:20:19] Kayla Simpson: workout. Mm. What happens when you work out is your muscle fibers are literally breaking down.

That's the process of when you work out and load the tissue and load the muscle. And when you do that, you have to replenish what was lost. So you can build muscle and recover. It's just the natural process, right? If you constantly are loading and loading and loading and not replenishing things like injury are going to start to happen, aches and pains that weren't there before sarcopenia with loss of muscle, you can actually not even gain muscle at that point.

Like, oh, I just want to get big and eat well. Well, you're not going to gain any size if you're not going to replenish what you lost.

[00:21:00] David Syvertsen: Right. I think that's one of the most important things people need to get out of. This one is again, volume of eating needs to be higher than a toddler. You know, that's part one.

I do think, and I don't want to get too deep into nutrient timing. We only have a few minutes left on this episode, but I do want to. Get the idea that third needs to be a plan. Post-workout what you're doing with your food. There has to be

[00:21:25] Sam Rhee: I think Kayla hit it on the nail right on the head, which is you're in a catabolic state, which has all the things that you're doing.

She said, you're breaking down your muscle. That's exactly right. You're stressing yourself out and you need to go back into your anabolic phase, which is. You know, growing, and if you don't have your nutrients on board with you guess what your body is going to do, it's going to break down and stuff that you don't want broken down.

You're going to, you're going to lose muscle mass. You're going to lose function. You're going to lose the things that you're actually trying to build up while you're fitnessing basically. And, and you know, there's some really good evidence that Eating some sort of caloric intake, not just the carbohydrates, but also other macros afterwards is really important.

So when you have clients, what do you recommend that they do post-workout

[00:22:11] Kayla Simpson: for post-workout. We want to make sure there's a carbohydrate and a protein together. They work off of each other in order to be best absorbed into the muscle, meaning the protein best absorbed into the muscle. The carbohydrate actually helps that process.

So. Having both of those within some sort of meal post-workout within an hour. That's what I say there is that window after you work out and it's studies show various timings and it's controversial, but within an hour, 30 minutes to an hour replenish what you lost

[00:22:48] Sam Rhee: and what kind of foods do you think are acceptable?

Okay. Tolerant, like, well tolerated for athletes usually.

[00:22:56] Kayla Simpson: Any sort of meal. I always, my approach is food first. So if you can get home and get a lean source of protein and carbohydrate form of a whole grain or a vegetable, that would be awesome. Lean sources of protein. A lot of us already know they already know.

So it's the, if you can have some sort of egg or egg whites and meats, lean cuts. Chicken salmon, not everyone wants to go home and have a piece of salmon on their Rhee for breakfast. Maybe they do, but making more practical options. And even if you don't have time, you can, you can supplement with the protein powder, generally, get it through food first and then fill the gaps in your diet with other things like all of these supplements and protein powders, but fruits, vegetable.

Other sources of lean cuts of protein.

[00:23:49] David Syvertsen: Yeah. We're big on Simple's better. I just think that the longer I do this with coaching and every now and then helping people out with like some lifestyle stuff, simple is better. And like that answer that Kayla said, like, it's almost like we already know that answer.

Right. But sometimes it does help. You need someone to tell you that, right? Like I, like, I worked with Kate a little bit earlier in the summer and we were just kind of like bouncing some ideas off each other with her programming and then my nutrition and like, A lot of the stuff that you hear it, you know, but it does, it always helps to have someone else tell you, like, Hey, let's confirm this and you know, be accountable to me like this is the macros.

You got to hit this number today. I want to see that you're hitting these macros. Right. But I do think nutrition it's really overwhelming for a lot of people. And I think the simpler you can make. The best, the better it is.

[00:24:36] Sam Rhee: Let me ask a couple sports specific questions. I know we didn't go over this, so I'm just throwing it at you on the spot.

So my first question is creatine is one of the most popular diet supplements that people have. What do you think about creatine for athletes?

[00:24:53] Kayla Simpson: I like routine. I it's safe. It's safe for athletes. It depends on your dosage. And I don't think everyone has to take it if you want to get to that next level.

And if you're a really competitive athlete or maybe you're someone who is older and he can't recover as faster or as fast anymore. I do. There are really good studies on creating that it is perfectly safe to take and optimal dosage is within three to five grams. And you'd have to just read the back of that label and make sure there's no other crap ingredients in there.

And then it does produce Muscle growth and it helps support sustain muscle growth. Over a period of time, there is a myth that it's going to make you great gain a crazy amount of weight there because of water retention because of water retention. And honestly, within the research that I've done, it's the average amount is like two pounds.

It's if you do it right, right over and there people cycle in and out of creatine, but. You don't necessarily have to. And I say, if you're training for something with over, like over a couple months, adding creatine could help support muscle growth and recovery in the long run.

[00:26:14] Sam Rhee: My other question would be, what do you find is most deficient nutritionally in athletes?

Like for example, when I was working out for a while, when I first started, I was getting these awful light cramps at night and that I never used. And then I actually started taking a mag supplement, which magnesium, which again, I don't know if this is real or not real, but perceived. And it really helped me a lot.

Do you find that there's certain things that maybe athletes need more of than if they're not training so much

[00:26:48] Kayla Simpson: water? Okay.

[00:26:50] David Syvertsen: Good point. I want to give her a hug for, yeah. Wow. So true. It is so true.

[00:26:55] Kayla Simpson: Yeah. Yeah. Water is huge, but this is where it becomes more specific to the person of what does your overall diet look like?

And are you getting enough? Calories, but also are you eating foods with potassium, magnesium, sodium, like an electrolyte, if you really struggle with water something, but also if you drink too much water, you can also be low on some of these certain electrolytes. So maybe that is beneficial, but commonly.

Water protein seems to be okay. These, it depends on the client, but it seems to be that people think they need a lot more than they actually do.

[00:27:48] David Syvertsen: How about this one? W if someone's going to, like, if I come to you and say, I need the 175 grams of protein and I, one of the issues I had when I talked to you about is I would save almost a hundred of those grams to the last hour of my day.

You know, at some point, do you think people overdo certain doses of proteins? At once a, because they just forget, or they don't want to have it right away, or it just doesn't fit with the convenience of the lifestyle that, you know, I'm just too busy during the day. I'm just going to save all this stuff for tonight.

At some point you can't process, you can't break down the protein if you're just having a hundred grams in one sitting, correct.

[00:28:24] Kayla Simpson: All of the above of what you said. Optimally in one sitting no more than 40 to 45 grams is going to be processed and broken down for muscle use for lean muscle use number for people to know.

Yes. The rest is going to be burned as energy somewhere else in your body. Right. Therefore spread your protein out throughout the day. Protein, every meal. Yes. Yes. Getting it in after workout with carbohydrates. And if you can't get it in, in three meals throughout the day, break it up into two other snacks.

That is the optimally. It is, I just did a big paper on nutrition and injury and how to avoid it. That would be one of the big factors that goes into it. And also recovery and muscle.

[00:29:16] David Syvertsen: Cool. I like that. You

[00:29:18] Sam Rhee: know, it's funny CrossFit has always propo. They were big proponents of the zone diet, which is what you're talking about.

Coupling every meal, like fats, carbohydrates, proteins together, but sometimes. Meals are 90% carbs and like 10%, every, you know, proteins and

[00:29:39] David Syvertsen: fat. So, you know, do

[00:29:41] Sam Rhee: you tell your clients to really focus? I mean, I know like post-workout and all this stuff, but what, what happens if you have a meal that's mostly, you know, maybe you're hitting your macros, but you're eating something that's super fatty.

Or, and I encountered this when I was doing my macros, just to try to adhere to a zone diet where it's just. Perfectly proportioned for every meal is, is really

[00:30:02] Kayla Simpson: challenging, very challenging and often not sustainable. And it's okay. I would say it's okay. First of all, you don't have to be perfect every single time, but what you want to avoid is having saving all of your calories and all of your macros for, or most of them for that evening hour or leader, and just one meal later in the.

Especially if you're not going to be working out around that, around that time. And if you have these meals that are higher in fat or higher in carbs, maybe a couple of times a week, or maybe more than that, it's okay. You can adjust and pivot from there. But that's where we'd have to see what are you truly not like?

Can we really fit something? Within your lifestyle, like, can we adjust or is it just something that you've created because of it's a, it's a habit because I love ice cream so much. I love ice cream to say don't, don't, don't get rid of the ice cream.

[00:31:08] David Syvertsen: So yeah, Kayla, that was awesome. That was a great first episode with you first.

For those that are listening, we still have more coming up. But this, this really kind of opened the door to what are the minimums for, for healthy eating for both, you know, whether you're working out for spore, if you're working out for health what are some things that just, you know, some numbers that you guys can keep track of without going nuts and just a great introduction and looking forward to these next episodes.