S03E121 Seasoned Warriors New Battles: The Future of Masters Competition in CrossFit
What is the future of the Masters within competitive CrossFit? Is there money to be made showcasing Masters athletes? Challenging the status quo, David Syvertsen @davesy85 and Sam Rhee @bergencosmetic shine a spotlight on the business side of CrossFit, drawing parallels with major and minor league sports. We also scrutinize the support offered to Masters athletes by CrossFit - or the lack thereof - and discuss ways it can be improved.
We discuss the motivation behind Masters athletes and the allure of striving to be the best in our age group, despite physical limitations and the ticking clock. Is there a better way to provide a more inclusive and rewarding competitive environment? What solutions could help to grow the sport on the Masters side and yet provide a financially feasible pathway for success for all?
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0:00:05 Masters Competing in CrossFit
00:13:40 Current Challenges Facing Masters CrossFit Competitors
00:27:50 The Importance of Masters CrossFit Competitions
00:31:57 Future Challenges of Masters Competing
00:39:11 Changes to CrossFit Games for Masters
S03E121 Seasoned Warriors New Battles: The Future of Masters Competition in CrossFit
[00:00:00] 2023_0924_1046: Alright, welcome back to the HerdFit podcast. I am coach David Syvertsen. I'm here with my cohost, doctor and coach Sam Rhee. And we have a interesting topic. Very apical to the members here, Bison reputation that we have worldwide. All right. We're going to talk about masters competing the landscape of masters competing in the sport of CrossFit, uh, two masters athletes here, um, that.
You know, probably a little bit biased towards the topic itself because it's very, it applies to us and we just got done doing a bunch of, uh, qualifiers for the Legends competition, Legends Championship. Um, sponsored by First Form, which is going to be in Arizona in December. And we have four, four, maybe five athletes that qualify from Bison.
And, you know, it's going to be something that we do together, fun, training for and going out there and competing. Um, and I just feel like it's relevant because I, I listened to, um, one of the guy that runs it, Joe Linton talk on the Masters Chatter podcast about legends a little bit about the landscape.
And I really, as I was listening to it, I had a lot of thoughts. On my, on my mind that I really wanted to share about Masters competing and towards the back half of this episode, we're going to really dive into some hard truths, uh, for Masters to listen to, and what we actually think is going to happen with competing Masters competing across it.
I think it's always going to be around and I'll tell you why in a little bit. I don't think it's going anywhere. At the same time, I do not think it's going to get as big as many people want to, or maybe even thought was going to happen. And... Sam, opening thoughts on the topic, because we, we've both, you know, we've never made the games or anything like that, we've competed locally, we've competed quarterfinals, um, opening thoughts on this topic, the landscape of Masters competing in sport.
I think Masters sport is, well, it's important to me, I, I, um, I've only competed as a Masters in CrossFit, I've never been, I didn't start young enough to be an individual like you did, um, and I've competed, To the best of my ability. I think you've gotten to the semis mm-hmm. , uh, in your age group. Um, my biggest accomplishment was before they had, um, the top 10%, they were taking the top 200.
Yep. And I squeaked top 200 in the world. Yeah. And I squeaked in barely on that one. And to me, that kind of competition and, uh, The ability to compete at the highest level at something is very meaningful. It means a lot. It meant a lot to me. It still does. Uh, and I think it means a lot to many CrossFit athletes.
Uh, the fact that I saw you guys competing. I mean, I don't think I've been more impressed with a group of athletes, Masters or otherwise, that I've seen in person than I saw you guys giving your heart out for those Legends qualifiers. Oh, this year? Yeah, that was really impressive. And so, you know, to not have the sport aspect of CrossFit for athletes to compete in and to strive toward, uh, I mean, that would be unthinkable for me.
Yeah. So let's just, for those that don't know or just want a quick little reminder, what is... Masters competing. Like what, what even is this? What are we talking about? And basically the number right now is age 35. When you turn 35, you are still in most cases doing the same exact workouts as any level of competition within CrossFit.
Alright, take away the games, just like the Open, Quarterfinal, Semifinal, it's kind of the same level of workouts, but you're only competing against people aged 35 to 39. And then it goes 45 to 49, etc. All the way up to, I think the last Masters group right now is 65 plus? I think so. So every five years... You, you move up into a new age bracket.
More importantly, you're only competing against people that are in that age bracket. There are even some 40 year olds that are fitter than most 35 year olds, but you're still as a 35 year old, not even competing against them. So the pool of athletes that you're competing against, guys and girls is, is a lot smaller.
You know, you, you can go do. Research on your own on CrossFit Games website, how many people are actually in the open division, which is everyone up to the age of 35. And then you have everyone in your just not masters all together, just your 35 to 39. So the group of people, it's a lot smaller. And when you have less people competing, it's a little bit easier to experience some success.
And that's so that's where the numbers are. for your masters competing. And every five years you go up a bracket. We see it every year here, right? Like, yes, I'm 55, where most of your friends are, you know, in a midlife crisis because they're getting older every year. You can't wait to get to that age next, uh, age group bracket because the, uh, you're not competing against people younger, but also just the crop of people.
It's, it's not as dense as, as it was those previous five years. So that's what masters competing are. I've heard rumors. They might change it to 30. Year olds being the first one. Really? I, I don't think that's gonna happen. Oh my God. I've seen some competitions do that. Uh, where the, the 30 year olds were the first master's group.
I think that's just garbage. I don't, I don't think that's gonna be anything that sticks around for a long time. Mm-hmm. , um, Sam, why do older people and we're both older people mm-hmm. , right? Why do older people still want to compete? You know? Um, let's get into that. 'cause I, I think that's one of the first things we need to kind of dive into before we get into what CrossFit should do.
Mm-hmm. , what Masters athletes should do. Why. Two people our age, past our prime, maybe, compete. If you look at the people here that are athletes, uh, we have a couple different groups of people deciding why they want to come, you know, do CrossFit. Some just want to come in, get a good sweat, work out every day.
That's awesome. We have a lot of people who were used to competing at a high level. I cannot tell you how many former athletes we've had. Uh, I mean, we have here who used to compete in football, in, you know, field hockey and soccer, you know, and they miss that level of competitiveness of pushing yourself, of achieving more and.
You can find that in other sports, you can be a triathlete, like in Ironman, you can go run, I know some master swimmers out there as well, uh, but CrossFit is, it scratches an itch for a lot of us that are athletes that are older. Just wondering, how good could I be? Like, how much can I achieve? What can I do?
Or, if you're a competitive person, where do I rank with others my age group against? You know, am I really fit? Or am I just, you know, fit at my gym? Am I fit in my local area? Am I fit nationally? And for a lot of us who are used to competing at a very high level, there's so much more that you can get out of a sport when you really, really focus on, on achieving your potential.
Yeah. I, and I think a lot of it is just life situation based on your life situation. Think about the amount of women here that have had kids, you know, in their twenties and their thirties, and then at some point they're, they're done or they're. done between babies, right? They had the year or two and their life situation now kind of opens up the door to, Hey, now I can put more time.
I'm not, I'm no longer pregnant. I'm not recovering from my pregnancy. I am going to put everything I have into training. So I think life circumstances really do. Open up the door to a reason why someone wants to compete. Um, another one is, you know, the surroundings, like who are you around? You come to CrossFit Bison, again, I don't think we, you know, push competing.
I think we have done a good job of blending the two together, like just fitness and, but also sport. But when you're in a rounded environment, we are all. All of us are products of our environment to a point. Some more than others, but all of us are products of our environment to a point. And there's a lot of people here that like to compete.
You know, we have a crazy amount of people that make quarterfinals every year. That might make you want to be like, you know what? I want to do it too. You know, we see that with kids. You know, like, you know, I, I watch it with Brock all the time. He's having a blast with two toys and he sees two kids with another truck.
And he's like, I want that one. Not the one that I have. It's same thing. You come to the gym and you're very in your own zone. You're having fun. You're working hard. And then you see these people sign up for their Asbury Park Summer Games like, wow, that looks like a blast. I'm going to do it now too, or I'm going to do it next year.
So I think surroundings dictate a lot, but on the, I don't know if this is a pessimistic side, but it's, it's reality to some, not all, that I think some people compete because when they become Masters, because it's, it's easier. It's easier to compete as a Masters athlete than an Open athlete, just based on the math alone.
Like you get to a point in your 30s, you're like, dude, I'm trying as hard as I can. I cannot hang with these guys. I just can't. I'm doing everything I can. They're just much better than me. Faster, stronger, every recovery, everything. But you get to that 35 year old group, right? You cut that number down and probably by 80 percent of the amount of people.
And a lot of those people, they're not the fire breathers, right? I've been to local competitions. I've been to, um, sanctionals and, and France and competing in open divisions. And everyone's like, Oh my, like a mutant out there. And I, and everyone's very serious. Not really talking to each other. Master's competition, like we're joking around, we're talking about our kids.
There's a different vibe at these master's competitions. They're still intense, don't get me wrong, but there's a different vibe. And I think that once you remove yourself from that open division, you get old enough to be a master's athlete. It's, it's a little bit more realistic for a lot of people to achieve a goal.
Right? Um, because the math is different and the vibe is different. Yes, but it's still extremely competitive. Like, if you don't have the talent to compete at the highest level as an open division athlete, you probably are not going to have it as a math. It's not like you suddenly turn on the afterburners when you become 35.
The top is still the top. You know, you look at some of the names that were in my group this year. Scott Panchik, you know, see Dan Bailey. Sam Dancer. Those guys could have a shot at making individual games. Maybe semifinals, which is still unbelievably elite. Um, but let's take the games out of it and just say like, all right, it's going to be a little bit easier to make quarterfinals, um, as a top 10 percent athlete than it would be in the open division.
Yes. You know, so I think, and it becomes realistic for some. Yes. And I think that's why some at, when they become a masters athlete, when they become old enough, they. They see the light at the end of the tunnel, being not as far away. Midlife crisis. Do you think that's a reason why? Maybe, for some. I'm not anti midlife crisis, by the way.
I think it gets a bad rap. But I don't want to go too down. My point of bringing up midlife crisis is, are people realizing things are starting to dwindle a little bit? Right? Whether it's your body type, whether it's your energy levels, guys, your testosterone numbers, right? You see things going down, getting worse.
And you know... Because you're, you know, because of biology, it's going to come to a close at some point. And at some point, it doesn't get better, right? Does that age 55, that when that number comes into play, it's like, no, no, dude, I am not ready to let go. I want to keep pushing myself so that I can just keep enjoying the, these.
Moments of feeling like a big, tough, strong, masculine man. And do you think that plays a part in why some people want to compete? I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a crisis, but I would say at some point in your life, you've accomplished certain things. Maybe you've worked really hard at your job and you're at a certain level, or, you know, you've gotten your family together and you've, you've achieved something with your family, you know, in terms of your, you know, where you are economically or, or.
You know, where you live. And then you're looking for another challenge. So instead of maybe midlife crisis, I would say, you're like, what will be my next challenge? I've had these challenges in my 20s, I've had some challenges in my 30s, or now I'm in my 30s and 40s and now, like, what will be the next challenge that really stimulates me?
Makes you feel alive. Yeah. Drives me. And there's no doubt that. If you are pretty good at CrossFit, this is a fantastic challenge to see what level at, in that sport that you can achieve. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, some people pick career that they really want to put everything, all their chips in the table and kind of like forego their health a little bit, but hey, uh, this all gains there.
I do think that. An individual person, if you look back on your entire life, like one, the one constant in my life since I, as early as I can remember, I can remember t ball. I think I was four or five. That's like one of my earliest memories. Always wanted to win. And every spring it was this sport. Summer was this sport.
Fall is this sport. Winter is that sport. It was, it's what drove me. One of my teachers when I was in high school who didn't like me, um, Went to my mom, she goes, all that kid ever cares about is sports. That's all he cares about. That's a effing compliment. I know. And, uh, but it wasn't, you know, she sucked.
She was a terrible teacher. And just terrible. But, you know. That that is like because I'll reflect sometimes I will like I admit this I asked myself. Why am I doing this sometimes? I do Especially this past year when my knee got hurt at legends last year. I'm like I started having those thoughts I'm like, why am I doing this?
You know, I have a kid now. I have a business I'm limping around the gym as I'm trying to teach people how to do crosses and it's safe, right? It's oh, it's always a tough thing to draw to really Do you know I've been banged up over the years a little bit never nothing. I mean nothing ever that serious, but I've had little nicks and as a, as a coach, sometimes I'm like, am I being the right example here for that?
Right. If someone says you new to the gym and I, I know that part of the reason slash the biggest reason why I like to compete, it's just what I've been doing. Without it, I don't feel like I'd feel alive. And if I get rid of CrossFit competing, I'm going to find something else to compete in. And I don't want to do golf, because I'm terrible.
And it's way too time consuming. Very time consuming. I don't, I don't, you know, the competition of having a business and trying to make bison the best cross in the world, that's, that's there too. Um, you know, maybe, maybe that cup will get more filled if at some point. I want to step away from competing, but it's at the end of the day, I don't want to.
And it's because you love it. And I really do think there's some people, a lot of masters out there, they don't want to let go of something they've been doing for 20, 30, 40 years. It's really hard to let go. And it's really defined them as a person in a lot of ways. So, you know, the, the, the getting into the business side, right?
That's the sport side, the competing, the mental side. You know, the business side of Masters competing is, I always kind of compare this to minor league baseball versus major league baseball. You know, people go and watch, there's talent there, there's respect, right? Like, I've been to so many minor league baseball games, I respect everyone out there, really high level, being paid to play baseball.
But you know. It's not the same, you know, I watched a lot of college football, you know, I've, I've been, I've had to watch some FCS games, like something like D1AA schools, right? James Madison, um, Mercer, um, over, over the past couple of weeks, you watch them like, all right, like good athletes, better than athlete than I've ever been, but.
You want to go watch Clemson vs. Florida State, or Michigan vs. Rutgers. Like, that's what you really want to watch. And then the ratings and the numbers, that tells the story too. To be blunt, there are tenfold how many people want to watch individual CrossFit over Masters CrossFit. And that's, that's never going to change.
And because of that, and because now we're over a decade into this. I think at some point, the business side of CrossFit and sport and Masters, there's going to be a divorce, a fracture there. You're a thousand percent right. It's not even a discussion of if. It's happening. There's no money in Masters, sport, CrossFit.
That's the bottom line. CrossFit has done the experiment, they've run it, and I don't want to hear any master say, Well, they haven't publicized it properly, or they haven't done this right, or they haven't executed, blah blah blah, and if you did this, they would come. If you built it, they will come. No. Get it through your heads.
There is no money. On the master's side of sport, CrossFit. I am a I, more than anyone else, support sport CrossFit sport masters, okay? When I went to Madison two years ago, and I watched the games, I went to as much of the masters as I could go to. How many people were there? Nobody. Yeah. And like, listen, I And this is no offense to the masters.
No! Just putting out the facts. Yeah. Are there people who knew these athletes that were there cheering them on? Absolutely. Uh, were there, like, but even on the 35 to 39 side, like, no, I'm sorry. And these guys were competing at the, some of the highest levels I've seen, but it's not the individuals. And Honestly, anytime the individuals were competing versus the masters, it was a real hard sell for me to be like, should I go watch these guys?
Or should I go see what the individual guys are doing? And I, and honestly, it's just not, you're right. It's not the same. Uh, I can't emphasize that, you know, I understand CrossFit is a community and they're like, if you want to, you know, you're selling out on the community if you're not building up. The Masters.
But listen, you can't lose, they're a business. Like you said, they're a business. They can't lose money like that. And they've tried, they've tried very hard. I would say if you're a Masters athlete, you should thank them for what they've done over the past 10 years. The effort's been put in. Oh my god. For improvements, they listen to the community.
They've done everything. But this past year, here's an example, right? Um, they, they did uh, Helen at the Games this year, the Masters athletes. 2 0 wins, I think. And I, I did want to tune in to just watch a benchmark be done, but I think I was home and I had the time and the, the camera was, you couldn't see anything.
It was probably, it looked like it was 200 yards away. You couldn't barely even see people running. You, you could not watch the matches compete. I was a little disappointed. A couple days later, Don Fall comes out and said like, Hey, we had to make a really tough decision based on the resources that we have.
You know, we have, we're being streamed on ESPN, um, that we had to really put all of our resources into the open division. That was the first, like, appreciate the honesty. It wasn't, Oh, he doesn't care about the masters. It wasn't. And because I'll tell you what, you masters athletes, you would have watched it, but you know us, but you know who wouldn't have.
Everybody else, you know, and here, here's some tangible numbers for you, right? Um, the legends competition, which is between them and Masters Fitness Collective. They're probably the two biggest worldwide, uh, Masters comps throughout the year. And they live streamed it on YouTube, I think three years in a row or two years in a row.
And they went all in on the production. They got, you know. Much more money than you think. I think Joe threw out the number, Joe Lennon, between one and 200, 000 to just get people at home to watch and with big sponsors that will sponsor a competition knowing that it's going to be live streamed. The number is generally about a dollar per view that we will sponsor your comp to help you do this live feed for a dollar per view.
And hey, how many views you guys get last year? 25, 000. So 25, 000 versus 100 to 200, 000. Can you do some math there? Somebody's losing over a hundred thousand dollars so that your friends and family at your gym. Can watch you do some thrusters and rope climbs. You know, like, would you do that? Would you provide that money for somebody else?
You probably wouldn't. And they did it two, three years in a row. And they did everything right. They even have their own YouTube channel. Like, hey guys, this is where it's gonna be. 300 subscribers, maybe. So they had to get Talking Elite Fitness to let them, have them comment and they used that live stream.
Because they had 25, 000 followers. Why does Talking Elite Fitness have 25, 000 followers? Because they talk about Open CrossFit. They talk about the elite, yep. They don't talk about individuals. And again, I know it's a collaborative effort, team effort. I respect them for trying. I respect Don Fall for being honest about why they just put a camera up on the other side of the field while everyone's doing Helen.
But this is where Masters athletes need to have a lot of self awareness. Alright, we are all impressed by you, so is everybody else. But that doesn't mean people, it's not going to put money in people's pockets. And there is a really bad misnomer, a really bad reputation that a lot of Masters athletes have in sport of being entitled.
A little pompous and thinking that they deserve more attention because they're pretty fit. What do you, where does your head go on that when you hear, because you've heard it too, I'm sure, right? Because you're pretty plugged in. You're just like, you listen to a lot. I do too. You read a lot. Complaining is.
Almost goes hand in hand with some Masters athletes that have been doing it for five to ten years. Um, I understand, listen, these are Masters athletes that are compete, that are performing at a very elite level. So, I understand the fact that they are complaining they're not getting enough attention. And they're free to go ahead and do so.
I don't, I don't have a problem. If you want to get on your... soapbox and say, we're not getting enough attention. People aren't treating us right. You know, we need this, that, and the other thing. God bless you, please go ahead and do that, but you know what? No one's listening, and you have every right to go ahead and complain, but, but the reality is what the reality is, and it's already changing.
Like, if you look at the games for next year, they are from August 8th through 11th. That's much shorter than it ever is. Fort Worth. In Fort Worth. And so guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna have the individual and the teams, guess where Adaptive Teens and Masters are going? Not, not to the games next year, and just wait, they're gonna have to announce it soon, but they will.
Back in 2021, Dave Castro said, even before all, you know, he came back, this was a long time ago, he said, we need to... Move the teens masters and adaptive and make them separate. He said that on a podcast, like I pulled off that out of somewhere. I can't remember, but you can go back and look. He, he, he had said that.
Um, I do remember that I do. And as. And people are saying, well, you know, masters make up 50 percent of the open participants and so forth. Yes, but they're not being watched on the higher level. Yes, but you know what all this, like when you have 60, 000 year olds competing in the open last year. Yeah. Guess what?
They're watching when they tune in, they're watching the individuals, right? Like they're, they're not wa unless they personally know someone in that division. They're not, they're not really gonna watch it. Mm-hmm. like the people, and they're, they're gonna, they're gonna say, well, look at Sam Dancer. Look at these people.
They're amazing athletes. They need to be featured. Yes. Sam Dancer is a stud. He's an anomaly. He is a, a figure he's going to make money as a professional. CrossFitter. But not everyone in the, can you, like, there are so many 35 to 39 year olds in there that I don't even know and don't care. Right. I care about Sam Dancer because he's a specimen.
Yeah. He's a brand. And he, yeah, he, his unto his own self. So unless you are an athlete who can build your own brand. A Sam Briggs, I don't know, Sam Dancer, you're, that's not going to elevate that division to where you think it, it ought to be. And if you think this is wrong and we're not right, that's fine.
I know CrossFit's going to give another entity, like a Legends, like an MFC, the opportunity to see if they can make money with the CrossFit branding behind it. Yeah, a little bit of support. And what do you think, I mean, maybe if they got 25, 000 views, like if you brand it the Masters Games. Like, what kind of, uh, viewership might you get?
You might get maybe two, three times the amount? Maybe more? Yeah, especially if it's not at the same time as an individual. Like, if you can separate it and put the Masters somewhere else where someone else is running it in July, you know, and just, like, not have it the same week as Cross. Because I know when I watch the games, you know, schedule's tough.
Like, I can't watch everything I want to watch, but when I do have time, I'm gonna go watch. The individuals are teams, you know, if the Masters games are in June or July somewhere, and it's not as big of a spectacle, but there still is some sort of broadcast, I would be much more inclined to watch it. I'm kind of hoping they would do it, uh, post games, so maybe November, December?
Okay. If there's someone fit enough to sort of compete on, if there are masters on the individual level, like some of the younger masters, but then they still have an opportunity to compete on the games level. Dancer said he's going to go for individual next year. Yeah. So wouldn't it be awesome to see him compete in August and then give them a couple months to sort of get his crap together again and then compete again in December?
Yeah. How awesome would that be? Yeah. No, it'd be huge. That'd be really cool. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think that Sam and I are both on the same page that the facts, the numbers, they don't line up with what a lot of Masters athletes think they, or I would say what Masters athletes want them to be, right? And in no way do we think that you should shun them.
I mean, I think we could spend some time on talking about why I think it is important for the Masters to have an outlet. I mean, we talked about some personal experiences, why we do it or why some people in this gym do it. But why for the CrossFit brand is it important? It is important to give them some sort of avenue to compete.
It just might be similar to the vibe they had in 2012 to 2016, where you're kind of like in a back room somewhere. You know, that's where a lot of them started to complain the most is that in Madison, they kind of had like a back shed with a little set of bleachers. That's where they did the workouts.
And to me, that's good enough, but I understand why that people wanted to be in the Coliseum and get more attention. And, you know, there's, there's a culture now where I do think a lot of people do it for the attention. That's literally the only reason they train hard to compete, which it's sad to me, I'll get into that later on, but.
Let's keep this on. Why should they do something for Masters competing? Why should CrossFit be involved in it? And my answer is the simplest thing in the world. Everything's, everyone's gonna be a Masters athlete at some point. And there's a lot of people in this gym alone. That's, that's how they're, why their fire burns bright.
They cross it because they want to compete. They cross it because they want to achieve things that they couldn't achieve when they were younger. They want like another shot at it. That, that's, that's gonna be a constant feeder system. Every year, there's another group of Masters athletes coming in.
They're, and a lot of them will have that mindset, Hey, this is my next shot. You know, I got my butt kicked for the last three years, or life got in the way, had a baby, different job. Here we go. I mean, I remember when I first became 35, I was so pumped. It was like probably the most excited I had been as an individual since like my early days.
So, I think that there's a reason why there should be something for CrossFit athletes as they get to the Masters level to still compete in sport, just not as big as what we thought some people wanted it to be. You know, everyone complains on the Masters side, they're not publicizing us enough, and if you did, you would build more human interest, and that's why we should do, we should have Sport Masters CrossFit, because there are human interest stories there that I do like.
Seeing and watching. I do like seeing and watching Jason Grubb compete. Learning, you know, where he started. Like, very humble. Like, had no, you know, uh, Yeah, great success story. Um, when you see some, there was another woman who, uh, Susan, I forgot her last name, but she's won like 10, like, sports. Uh, I actually met her very briefly when I was there two years ago.
Um, you know, these are peop you know, even, um, What's her name? Becca Voigt, uh, Miller. Like, you know, the fact that she's competed for so long at such a high level, like, yes, these are stories that need to be elevated, that need to be, uh, you know, publicized, because you're right, we're all masters at some point, and to look at these athletes and say, wow, look at these people killing it at whatever age that they're at, um, even, um, David, uh, The older guy who's like now 65 plus, the dentist, uh, with the long hair.
Oh, the Hip and steel. Yeah, hip and steel. Yeah, so uh, I met him too. Like, I watch these guys and they're so inspiring to me. Um, we should have these people featured. The problem is, is that not enough people are really watching it. And if you're like, oh no, if we actually spent more money and time, they would.
Okay, there's going to be another opportunity. They're going to farm it out to another Organization. I think one that really could execute and fulfill whatever aspirations that some of these Masters athletes have, they're going to do it. Like Legends has really given it the college try. Yeah. They, they put a lot of effort into it.
Imagine if they had the backing of CrossFit and, and, and through a separate event, you know, pretty open about the fact they haven't made money yet. Yeah. So let's see what happens with something like that, with the CrossFit branding behind an event like this. See what kind of push they can get, see what kind of numbers they can make, can they turn a profit, can they make this something that's worthwhile from a financial standpoint.
At that, you know, I remember for the legends, uh, when they did the broadcast when you were competing and it was, uh, the Talking Elite Fitness guys who were broadcasting, they were like, Listen, if you care about the Masters, watch. You know, do this, do that, like, you know, go to the sponsors, you know, really show, you know, with your pocketbook that the masters are important, and you know what?
It hasn't happened. There's another, there's going to be another opportunity. So... If you truly believe that this is viable, that this is something that can be worthwhile financially, um, I, I know CrossFit's going to give, give that opportunity. It won't be at the games, it's not going to be next to Pat Vellner and, you know, yeah, and all those guys.
But like, it's, it's, there's going to be an opportunity. Yeah, there's going to be something. And this is where I want to just give the reality check to some of the Masters competitors that You know, I'm one of you guys, like I love to compete as well. And my challenge to you, and this is something that I would say to anyone that goes down the competition train.
Uh, because of the world we live in, the social media, you know, I remember saying this years ago on my Instagram that if there was no such thing as social media and there was no such thing as a podium picture and no one knew that you competed, those three things, would you still compete? Because if your reasons for competing, especially as a Masters athlete, right, are only external, right?
We all have external desires, but if they are only external, I, I think you should walk away from the sport because I think you're going to be very disappointed at some point where there are just not that many people that care. And it's again, no offense whatsoever. It's just the truth, you know, that if you think something new is going to happen in your life because you're going to get attention and become famous, or you're going to get a lot of people to respect you because of those components.
I think you're going to infer a really harsh dopamine crash, right? That it's just not that important. I want to challenge a master's competitor that has the highest aspirations to compete for yourself, to compete for the goal of pursuing something that's really hard, commendable, respectable, you know, check all those boxes.
But it's got to be something that you truly want for yourself. You just want to accomplish it. But if you, and you're, this is a hard question for some people to admit out loud, but I've been around this for a long time and I could usually spot it from a pretty far distance away that if you're doing it for the external validation.
And you think it's going to change how people perceive you? Um, I, I think you're very wrong. And I think that when I hear the people, whether it's on a podcast was master chatter or someone else on some sort of bitching Instagram posts about not getting enough attention. My first sign, my first thing I want to say, I almost never comment on anything social media, I just don't want to go down that path, is, is saying like, someone put you on the wrong train, you were guided incorrectly, you know, getting into the sport is about you, especially as a Masters athlete, that's not getting paid, you know, you got maybe get a, you're not sponsored if you get a couple pairs of shorts and a shirt every now and then, right?
That if you are, Going down the competition train just for the external attention I think you should get out because it's gonna it's gonna ruin you long term because at some point you're gonna learn like you did all that shit for other people all the grinding and work and No one really cares that much and that and that's why the masters competing now guys.
We all have friends. We all have family We all have gyms. We support you, right? We have a lot of magic. I support everyone that comes competes from here. Good, bad, new, old, veteran. Like, I'm proud of you for, for accomplishing this. I'm your coach though. We're talking about the public, you know, and this is why Masters competing is just never really going to get to the level where some of the people think they are.
And that just causes so much dismay in people's eyes. I don't think any of our athletes here are competing for glory. No. It's not so that they could get their name up in lights. Yep. Everyone that I've seen here, they just want to see what they can do. Yep. They believe. that they can do more. And when they do that, that's what I love seeing.
And that's the purest expression of what competition in sports should be. Just got done training with, um, Amy and Kat, um, and Alex, who's definitely not a master's athlete. That guy's like 20 something years old. That to me, like, that's, that's, I think why we do it. Like, I can't speak for them, but it's, it's the process, right?
Process over results. Like we'd love the, the 10 week buildup of like getting after it. Being smart with recovery, but like feeding off each other, you know, shared pain is good pain. You know, that's where I that's what I love that. This is my favorite part of competing right there is like the 10 to 12 weeks leading up to a comp because it's it's pure.
It's just hard work, but it's not for like, hey, I hope these people in Wyoming see what I did for my training regimen today because they don't care and I would say most people in this gym don't even care. And it's a huge letdown if you think that they do and at some point you find out they don't.
That's what I see with masters that complain about competing. They thought because they accomplished something, the world was gonna change for them. And it's like, we clap, high five, proud of you, see you later. What's for dinner tonight? You know, like, that's where our head goes. And... That, that's something that I think we all need to kind of keep our, uh, keep checked in on.
No one I know can really make a living as a Masters athlete. Yeah. They're just like everyone else. They're like me. They got a day jobs. They have kids, they have families and God bless them for competing at such a high level with all the same responsibilities that you and I have. But you're right. Like, I don't have sympathy.
If. If, if you want adulation, if you want notoriety, if you want the world knocking down on your door, Oh, you're so awesome. You're the, the best 49 to, you know, whatever, like, you know, like 45 to 49 year old out there. Yeah. You're the best 45 to 49 year old that played college soccer and, and, uh, uh, lives in New Jersey and, you know, has two kids and a part time job.
Right. There's 18 filters and you're the best in the world. Right. First of all, they're like. Fifteen divisions out there. Second of all, like... That's actually a component we should bring up because I want to talk about the future, what we think should happen. What, what's hard about, like, so I've won, I've won twice, right?
You don't get paid as much as you think you should have or could have, I should say. And they were losing money so that the fact you got any money is like a good thing. But part of the reason, and Joe has said this, there's so many divisions. There's like there's three people per gender per age group.
It's like 26 people Yes, like you can't give them all five grand You know, so like like that's another component to this like got open division looking at our post right now There's a guy winner and a girl winner if you see you later. What if he simplified it and you went 35 to 45? Or 49 and then 50 and up, like just two big fucking open divisions out there.
I mean, I'd be cool if I would be, I would be fine with a 10 age, 10 year age. I think that'd be interesting. Um, I mean, it's still, it's just a lot of divisions. It's a lot of people. It's a lot of people. You can't keep track of all these athletes. That was, you know, for a hot second. I told you, I was thinking about like running out another podcast with just masters and just talking about the sport masters.
I really thought about it and I looked at it and I was like, Like, dude, the amount of data you would have to collect to really break down each division. A lot of work. It's insane! You probably need to hire someone to help you out with it. Oh my god, like, you know, so, just that fact. And then it changes every year.
Yes, because these people moving in, people are migrating up, and so, to keep track of all that, listen, you know, let's get real here, okay? Again, it comes back to make this for yourself. And then I think all these questions can be solved, including do I really want to do this, you know? So Sam, we have two parts left, two questions to ask.
Let's answer them. Alright. What do we think the future is? And, the second one, what would we do if it were up to us? If Don Fall came back here and said, Guys, what should we do with Masters? You guys make the call. So, what do we think will happen, and what do we think should happen? I think, let me say what I think, what I would do.
And I'm gonna say, I hope this is what CrossFit does. Don, I love it. Okay, so I want them to take over Legends in December. Okay. and make that the games. And give Linton and these guys, Bob, who've had a crap load of experience and say, we're going to put our name, our brand on your competition. CrossFit Legends Comp.
Yeah. CrossFit Games, Legends, Masters, whatever you want to call it. You know, you run it. We'll, um, Access the sponsors. Yes, we'll give you access to our sponsors, we're gonna, we're gonna publicize it, we're gonna push it. These are the games. Piggyback on the open, uh, quarters, semis, like, run that all online the same way.
Okay. And then... Give the top athletes like a Sam Dancer the opportunity to compete in the games if they want as an individual and then Most of them will sort of cycle their training so that they could Cycle up again for December compete in in games legends, whatever you want to call it and And, and say, let's say we'll subsidize you guys by X amount and, uh, this is your budget, you know, uh, let's see what happens and then have at it, see what happens with that.
I like the timeline behind it too. My only counterpoint would be masters, generally speaking. It is hard for some of them to make things happen in December, harder than the summer, I would guess, because of kids and jobs, but, again, you know, there's not, there is not a perfect time for it, and it works pretty well with Legends, you know, they're gonna have 500 competitors this year, so, maybe, maybe the December timeline is great.
They can save money by using the age group, uh, online qualifiers and semis to qualify for the game. Right, so there's no long, there's no longer an online qualifier. You have the Open. If you make top 10%, you can add in the quarters. If you make top 20, the semis. The one counterpoint I would have, or the one suggestion I would have, is to make the if you're gonna have a Masters only games, the numbers should be more.
We shouldn't have 10 guys per division, and I'm gonna tell you why. It's not because I came in 14th after the semifinals. Alright, every year because Masters athletes are a little bit more vulnerable to getting hurt in the middle of a competition weekend Yeah, you know you watch the last event or two and there's only ten people that start There's like six left in some of these divisions.
There's just a bunch of empty lanes I like the number 30 always have that every age group gets 30 athletes For semis? No, no for that for the games. Oh, for the games? Yeah, so they the one thing that the CrossFit would have to do is, hey, everyone can do a top 10 percent out of the Open. That's fine.
Quarterfinals, instead of only the top 20 moving on, should probably be the top 60, top 50. And then the semifinals for them would be 50 people, top 30 make it, something like that. I like that number. Um, for a lot of reasons, but the, the, the, the issue would be that's expensive to run. It could be. I think you need a little bit more support for watching.
It's just more videos to watch and more videos validate, but you have time. So this is another thing I would do because I'm on the same page as you is give it to legends. Provide support. Open is step one. Quarterfinals is step two, but the semifinals are not until the fall. Ah, so after the games. Let them recover a little bit.
Yeah. You know, let, let, let Sam Dancer decide if he wants to do the semifinals. In August. And like, some people, I know it's, it's months away, like you might qualify for semis. in April. And be like, dude, I got to go in August. That actually think helps a lot. That would help masters out a lot to like say, all right, I'm not doing semifinals two weeks from now.
I just put myself through a blender. Right. And then they could still do the individuals. Individuals if they made or team, right. There's a lot of masters athletes. And then just do the semis in the fall. Yeah, September, October, we know, and then in December, we know who's going. That would be awesome. That would actually build interest like one or two months before the actual games.
And I think you can easily separate, right? Like one of the reasons why Masters does not get the attention other than the fact that, no offense, they don't care as much, is it's all at the same time. So like, we only have, as consumers, we only have so much bandwidth to give CrossFit sport. And if they're going at the same time, you're going to put all your bandwidth, almost all of it, on Patrick Vellner and Roman, the poster I'm looking at right now, right?
Um, where it's after the games, you still have another month or two. Of being like, alright, what's next? Like, Rogue Invitational in October, like, that's cool, like some people watch it, but like, no. Like, I'm gonna pay attention to the semifinals in the fall. Gives you also a little bit more time for the video review process.
You don't need like a one week deadline, which is always a cause for Things getting overlooked. Yes. And then you just, you have like a, you use the fall to really build up the masters. Yep. Because that's a pretty dry time of the year for CrossFit in general. That fall into winter. There's just not much.
Until Waterpalooza, there's not much happening. Right. And they tried, they opened that in the October, a few years ago. Like they, that, that is a dry time. And for those that don't care about Masters competing, it's just going to continue to be that dry time, but it kind of gives the Masters an opportunity, their own exclusive time of the year are semis.
And Hey, if you don't make semis, like you're not really in the discussion. So just don't, don't bother do the quarters. And then you don't have to think about it all summer. Right. You know, I think those are the elements that. You know, really can kind of knock two birds out with one stone is just get the masters out of the games.
And then you have to bring up like venues and everything. But that's where I think Joe and Bob, they really come in. Like Joe, I think he said he looked at five or six different locations, very proactive. And we're, we're competing at Arizona state this year on campus. And he told me, and he said it on the podcast, he goes like, it is by far the best venue we've ever had.
Just like space, logistics, location, proximity to the airport. You're in a great town. You know, maybe Joe has some connections around the country. Maybe it is Arizona where this is where it could be. Who programs the CrossFit legend games? I'm available. I was thinking more like Adrian Bosman versus Joe.
Yeah, it's, that's a great question. That would just probably be part of the negotiation. Um, if I was Joe and I was Bob, because I know Bob does it too, I would have, uh, they do a good job with programming and I'm big on don't fix it if it's not broken, but they're not employed by CrossFit, so they're probably, I'm assuming, I don't know, Boz and Castro, they might be like, dude, after the games, like, I'm checked out.
They might not even want to be involved. So they'll just like have at it, have at it, we will have to confirm the programming. Like, we have to put our stamp of approval on it. Sort of like sanctionals did. Yeah. Or, you know, you go out and, like, You start, you start, um, interviewing, I guess, is that, or, or just using your network, right?
Do you ask Rich Froning if, if Mayhem wants to do it to kind of build up his brand a little bit? That's kind of what Legends did last year is building up the Mayhem brand or Mayhem using Legends. Um, but there's a lot of people out there that I think really could program a really good Masters comp. And I would say let Boz and Casher, let them focus on the individuals.
I think that's where they do their best. And I think there's probably someone out there that would be a little bit better. With, with doing the master side of things. Well, they would have more time at least. Yeah, right. So, um, more energy. So yeah, that's our conclusion guys. Uh, Sam and I both think that legends, you know, CrossFit, you guys should guys get in touch with each other and, and CrossFit should support legends, but let legends run the show, separate it by five to six months.
Um, quarterfinals can all be at the same time, but semifinals in the fall, Masters games in the winter. Um, and, and let them be its own thing. Because I think that's the only solution left to kind of lift up the Masters community, which is a very important part of the community. And it's only going to increase as time goes.
You know why this won't happen? Why? Because I think it makes too much sense. Everything I think makes too much sense never happens anyway. Yeah. Like an app, right? Come on, come on guys. Get on your, get on that app for Sam. All right, guys. Well, thanks for listening. That's the landscape of masters fitness competing.
Any comments, questions, please reach out to us and we'll see you next time.
