S05E157 - Navigating New Members vs Retention: Successful CrossFit Gym Growth
Are you struggling to find the perfect balance between gym membership growth and member retention? Join us on the Herd Fit Podcast where Coaches David Syvertsen @davesy85 and Sam Rhee @bergencosmetic share their unique experiences and insights to help you master this crucial aspect of gym management. From the complexities of financial stability to the art of decision-making in a community-focused environment, they cover it all. Learn how to anticipate challenges and pivot smartly to maintain a thriving gym community.
In this episode, we tackle the intricacies of creating a welcoming gym environment, especially when dealing with popular class times and integrating new members. Our conversation dives deep into practical strategies for coaches to ensure newcomers feel welcomed without neglecting long-term members. We share personal anecdotes and proven techniques to foster inclusivity and maintain a positive atmosphere even as your gym grows.
But that's not all—we also dig into the thorny issue of membership pricing and retention. You'll hear about the pitfalls of discount-driven new memberships and how to value your loyal, long-term members. We discuss adapting gym programming to meet the evolving needs of your community and the importance of events in building a strong, supportive gym environment. Tune in for actionable advice and emotional insights on balancing member needs while ensuring continuous growth and satisfaction.
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S05E157 - Navigating New Members vs Retention: Successful CrossFit Gym Growth
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker Names
David SyvertsenHost
00:05
Hey everybody, welcome to the Herd Fit Podcast with Dr Sam Rhee and myself, coach David Syverson. This podcast is aimed at helping anyone and everyone looking to enhance their healthy lifestyle through fitness, nutrition and, most importantly, mindset. All right, welcome back to the Herd Fit Podcast. I am Coach David Syrson. I'm here with my co-host, dr and Coach Sam Rhee. Back just the two of us for today.
00:29
We have a really fun topic to talk about, very relevant to Sam's current change of life as a new owner of CrossFit Bison, and this is a topic that we've talked about from inception, from day one. I actually can recall some experiences back when I was an athlete member coach at CrossFit Hoboken, back in like the 2011 era that I'm going to bring up, and the topic centers around what is more important for gyms when it comes to your membership. Is it's about getting new members, new people, in the door, or is it about retaining the people that you currently have, which is more important? I know any discussion like this a debate the answer is usually in the middle right. We cannot lean in one way or the other. It won't work if you do, for obvious reasons, but I do think some gyms get this wrong in terms of putting way too much emphasis on one side or the other. You do need to be hybrid here. You need to look at it from both perspectives.
01:29
I do lean a certain way that we'll get into at some point, but, sam, I want to talk about this from perspective. We've been in three perspectives. All right, we've been owners, currently are okay. We've been coaches, not owners. And we've also been members of a gym that have no, no, no affiliation to being on staff or ownership, and I want to look at it from those three perspectives, opening thoughts for you on a topic that is really important, both with CrossFit and gyms outside of CrossFit. What is more important getting new people in the door or keeping the ones that you have?
Sam RheeCo-host
02:06
Yeah, this is probably for every CrossFit gym out there, one of the most important concepts in order to be successful and to grow. And you might think, yeah, I'm also in a business where this is important and there are a lot of businesses where you need to focus on both new members and retention of new members or retention of members. But it's a little different for gyms and, I think, even more different for CrossFit, because the way the CrossFit model works, the way gyms are successful, is not exactly the same way as most other businesses are, and you've seen it at Hoboken, you've seen it at our old gym when you first started growing, and now, I think, more than ever, as a mature gym and 10 years in, this is even bigger topic to talk about than it ever has been, because it's not. You'll talk about the different growth phases and where your priorities are, but how do you maintain that sort of focus and thinking about both parts of the equation when now you've had a lot of experience, like you said?
David SyvertsenHost
03:13
Yeah, and the answer to me, like the way I approach something like this if this was an owner meeting right now and we had Dee and Hawk with us and meetings that I've had with Tafaro over the past 10 years like this has come up several times and I kind of want to peel back that curtain a little bit and be like hey, what are those discussions like? And I think it's really important that in this kind of discussion, we understand that it's a blend of art and science. I lean more towards it's more art than science, because I don't think you have a template out there that you can follow that we did, or vice versa. But what I do think is really important is that if and when you have a strong opinion about a certain side of a debate like this, you have to try to play devil's advocate to your own opinion and to me, that's one of the skills of people that are very forward thinking. They can adjust on the fly and they're good at pivoting. It's like, hey, I feel a certain way, but I'm going to try to talk myself out of this solution to really confirm that I actually believe in the solution or at least be ready for the downfalls of whatever direction you go in, because I think that you can really condition your response to hey.
04:24
Let's say, we come up with this solution to this problem that we might have at some point and it doesn't work. We should have anticipated it not working and we should have a response ready for that. So that's kind of where this discussion is going to go. We're going to look at it from the perspective of owners. That's where we're going to start. We're going to look at it from the perspective of coaches, who, in my opinion, I still think they're the most important people to an affiliate or any gym. And we're going to look at it from the perspective of members, because their opinions, at the end of the day, it matters most, of course. So those are our clients, our customers. All right, so business is business. Okay, if we had no emotion and there is a time and place for this approach where we're only looking at the bottom line that it would be a pretty easy answer to this, and this is why I think a lot of people that join ownership or own an affiliate, that are not exactly involved in day-to-day operations in the community right, they are looking at this from. Hey, we need the bottom line to be higher. We need to make more money and which is what's hard about this in terms of giving macro general advice, there are some gyms out there that people have their income. Majority of their income is coming from that business, so it really matters how much. Other gyms are like hey, it's a side gig, I don't need this. If it falls apart, I'm going to be okay. They might lean more towards. Hey, it's a side gig, I don't need this. If it falls apart, I'm going to be okay. You know they might lean more towards. Hey, it's okay if we make two grand less per month. Four grand less per month, it's okay because it's not going to affect my personal life. So you have to kind of consider that this discussion can kind of tailor to both those sides and we have to bring up both those sides.
06:02
So let's look at it from the perspective of this place. Is feeding families. We have multiple full-time employees that this is their. You know the majority of their income. I'm one of them. Right, this is, the majority of my income comes from this place and with that, it's a unique job in that I don't have a set salary. I don't make the same amount of money every single year. Part of my money not all, but part of my money is based on how well we do or how poorly we do, and you can go one of two ways with that. You can go in the direction of hey, there's no limit to what I can do, there's no limit to how much money I can make. I can keep going. Or there's also, this can really bottom out. I can cut my income in half next year, and it wouldn't be a surprise to that many people that it happens all the time.
06:43
Sam, you're in a position where you are. You invested into this place, right, and you're not buying dinner for your family tonight based on dividends that you get from CrossFit Bison. I hope not. However, there is a goal, there is a goal. It might be a small goal, it might be a big goal. There is a goal to get some money from this place because of what you've invested into it. When you if I put you in a corner and then we'll open up the conversation a little bit more and I said hey, what would you want to do, sam? Do you want to keep people here or do you want to get more people in and potentially really raise? You know the bottom line.
Sam RheeCo-host
07:21
Tough answer. If it was from an income perspective and we said, okay, you know what Money is money, we got rid of everybody but we replaced everybody with new people, that would really hurt. It would make me feel really bad. The income would be the same. Let's suppose we have 500 members 450 left but we have 450 new members. I'd be like, wow, this is horrible. 50 left, but we have 450 new members. I'd be like, wow, this is horrible.
08:09
Yeah, so I am someone who really values the culture, the people that built this place, that have been a part of this place for a really long time. So to me that is probably where I would lean. But on the other hand, I also realize that not everyone has stayed for as long as you have, or I have, and you know, and there are new people and they've brought so much positive value into the gym and especially with, like the comp yesterday, like the in-gym comp, like just watching all the newer members, I was like this is pretty awesome, like the energy, like their perspective, their growth. So I can't discount that. But you know, I know what built this place and to me that's really foundational.
David SyvertsenHost
08:57
Yeah, there's a loyalty factor, right, there's people that you kind of were working out with with four people at 6 am. Really, when you started at 6 am, well, really, when you started at 6 am, there was three of you right, and now there's a wait list. And why is there a wait list now? Because more people have joined and it's made your life more stressful, because you guys probably have alarms on your phone to sign up at 6 0 1 pm because all these damn new members came into the 6 am crew. That's right. Um, so again, this is why this discussion go in a lot of different ways. It's like, yeah, you want more people because it hey, just take the money out of it, it adds to the gym. I mean, I can give you 10 people right now that joined the gym in the past two to three years. All right, so the you know the, the previous 30% of our, our gyms lifespan, that are huge factors to our community. Yeah, so if you ever went down the path of saying it's not important to get new people, you're missing the boat. That's the extreme, all right. We have to stay away from the extremes on both sides of this discussion. The answer is in the middle. We have to keep it our, you know, attention on that killer video and I forget I don't want to quote him, but he was criticizing, I believe, uh, craig Howard from CrossFit Diablo, who I think is a 19 year affiliate now. Oh, wow, yeah, they're one of the oldest, yeah, uh, and he was criticizing him in that, like the the Diablo, who I think we actually I've actually messaged him a few times. We're gonna try to get him to come on with us, because I think we just have a lot of similar thoughts to cross it and owning affiliate, coaching an affiliate, and he is very big on hey, it's more important to retain what you have and hillary is more about no, let's get new people in the door.
10:33
So I'm going to give a pretend scenario to you and, as an owner and the coach, sam, I'm going to put you on the spot. I want you to say what would you do handle this situation? You're coaching a class of 30 people at 6am on a Thursday fun wad. You're doing a, you're crushing it as a coach. You have a good warmup, good cues, people are having fun, the music's great, someone new comes in and just wants to check out the gym and they're standing awkwardly by the door. If you've been coaching CrossFit long enough, this has happened to you and you're kind of like you know we're not a gym that has a staff of five people walking around like you're usually here by yourself at that time on staff, right. And if you are coaching that class, you're in the middle of a snatch demo, right. Or you're in the middle of a workout watching 30 people work out by yourself.
11:17
By the way, what do you do? Do you see this person and you're like oh hey, I'm sam, what's up, what, what's up? What do you need? Or nice to meet you? How can I help you? That kind of thing? Oh, I want to learn about the gym. I want what is CrossFit to you? Like, what is it? Why should I do this? What do you do in that exact moment?
Sam RheeCo-host
11:35
I mean, I think we've all faced that as coaches. You have a full class, it's busy and someone new shows up and you have to integrate them. So the first part of me as a coach, when someone brand new is in there, is to not take a negative attitude and be like gosh yeah, because that is just a recipe for disaster.
David SyvertsenHost
11:57
Turn off.
Sam RheeCo-host
11:57
I want it to be. I'm like excited. The first thing I have to do is flip my mind, switch like the Ben Bergeron. It's not. I have to do this. I get to do it Right. I get to show someone CrossFit for the very first time, which is actually kind of a big responsibility as a coach. So I want to make sure they feel welcome. So I am really important. It's important to me to introduce them, to get them to have people in our class know who they are when they first show up, to have people in our class know who they are when they first show up. And I would say that most of our members are really good at introducing themselves, saying hello, talking to new members. I think we I mean, I want to. I'm not going to brag, but I think we're among the best in terms of what I've seen when I've dropped in on a lot.
David SyvertsenHost
12:38
Yeah, I mean you've dropped in a lot. Yeah, I would say you dropped in as much, if not more, than anyone I know to other gyms. So your opinion on how you're treated as a drop in it matters compared to what we see here.
Sam RheeCo-host
12:49
Then I want them to feel comfortable with the movements and what we're doing. I always put them up front because then I can, like, really make sure I keep an eye. Now the problem is is I also know that I'm not really giving as much attention that day in that class to everyone else, but most people are very understanding about that, they know it and especially in the morning they're not looking to you know, they're looking to get their workout in and mostly go like we have a lot of people are very experienced. So if I kind of pull back in terms of my attention to them and I really am focusing on this person and then I just want to keep them safe and have a positive experience, I don't want them to go crazy. I want them to do the movements that they feel comfortable with.
13:31
And then the third thing is not be like that golden Labrador retriever puppy where I'm just like kind of like slobbering all over them, because, first of all, it's a little overwhelming if you pay too much attention like that, yep. And the second thing is that you don't know where this person's going to be. Maybe they love it, maybe they're just like crying it out and they're not going to stick around. So you do what you can, but you also don't like make them your chew toy, where you're just like beating them up over it as well.
David SyvertsenHost
14:04
Yeah, you don't want to come across as this like overly overbearing. You know salesman Right Like yeah, I hope you like this How's my class, how's the movement?
Sam RheeCo-host
14:11
Right? So it's a, and over the years, I think I've found a better balance with that, and so my only goal is that that class for them for that day is a good one.
David SyvertsenHost
14:25
Yeah, so that's like a really good perspective from a coach. And Sam, yes, owner coach right now. But that is really what any coach should really be striving for is hey, don't forget about the class, don't be overbearing. But that first experience in the gym is a lasting one, especially if they're working out. Sam's example was hey, someone's coming in to work out with the group. And another scenario could be this Someone is coming in to check out the gym, just to see it.
14:54
I think every gym I've ever joined in my entire life I went and saw the gym before I worked out there. It's like in regular street clothes. I just showed up and just kind of wanted to get a look. People would show me around. All right, cool, I'm going to come in tomorrow, I'm going to come in Saturday and come work out. And if you're coaching a class and someone does that, what do you do? You know this person is not coming in to work out, they're just coming in to see it.
15:18
And I think I've had a pretty specific strategy of dealing with that, where, if someone comes in, especially on a big class and I know you know we've been through this scenario so many times you know exactly what's going to happen when they come in. You see someone's looking around. They got their jeans and their hat on their nice shoes are coming from work. Like, all right, that person's not here to work out, I don't know who it is. I'm going to go say hey, I'm Dave. Real quick, you introduce yourself. Make sure you get that done as soon as possible, even if you're mid-workout, mid-warm-up. Hey, I'm Dave, real quick. Hey, I'll get to you in a sec, just so that they know, because it is an intimidating place to walk into and you know CrossFitters, they're mid-w. Who are you? What are you doing here? So you know that you have like a very small window of time to get over to that person. Be that smiling face, welcome. Hey, let me get back to you in a sec.
16:14
That's where I think, coach owner, this is where it's really important. I still believe that the class is the most important thing that goes on inside that gym. So even if someone walks in that's new and just wants some information, they want to be showed around. I am going to, yes, introduce, but I will also say, hey, I'll get to you in a sec, I'll be right there, I'll be right back, we'll talk, and then there's usually different glimpses of windows in a class, whether it's one minute, three minutes, 15 seconds. Hey, real quick, start doing your spiel. Hey, what's up? Do you want to watch class? Are you interested? I can get you a chair you can watch the class. And then, every now and then, you get another glimpse of a window of like just hey, so where are you from? What's your workout history like? But to me, I think it's really important.
16:59
In that environment, in that situation, the class is most important. Sam's situation, where the person is in class working out with them. We've struggled with this for a long time. They need a lot of your attention. So there are days where you're more experienced athletes aren't even going to get a look in that kind of environment because we don't want someone getting hurt, and to me that's not even a business decision. It's just like a humanity. I don't want to want someone getting hurt and to me that's not even a business decision. It's just like a humanity, like I don't want to watch someone get hurt, so I want to stand here and make sure they're doing their thing safely. So that's like a blend of owner and coach perspective on what do you do in a situation with a new person in a room full of paying members.
17:40
Here's another thing that I think about as an owner, and I noticed this before I was a coach, before I was an owner, before Bison was even a thought Groupon. Do you remember Groupon? Yes, okay. So when I was at CrossFit Hoboken love those guys, by the way, they were on Groupon a lot and it actually worked out for them, I think you know you put a deal on Groupon and you got members out of it. So, from a business perspective owner perspective it worked. It got people in the door, and, let's say, it got 30 people in the door and nine of them signed up. That's a that's a huge win, business wise.
18:13
I remember, though and this is back when I I went from paying a $60 a month membership to I think it was like 185 at that time, and this is back in the 2012 era, where I signed up for my class. I was still relatively new, and instead of there being 12 of us, there was 37 of us, and we were sharing ring rows with three people, and it was really unorganized, and it wasn't anyone's fault, I mean. The coach did their best, but there's 37 people in there and 19 of them have never been inside a CrossFit before 19. Like, just think about that, right. Like what do you do?
18:47
And I remember thinking in that moment I was like I'm paying a lot of money for this membership. These people that are coming in are here on a $20 Groupon and I'm the one that's getting the shaft here. And that thought has stayed with me to this day that a paying member, someone that's paying a higher than average gym membership, they deserve the respect of an owner and a coach to be a priority maybe not the priority every single time, but a priority over someone that's A, either not paying at all or B is getting a discount. And that, to me, is where the loyalty factor comes in. What are your thoughts on that? You could speak out of both sides of your mouth now if you want.
Sam RheeCo-host
19:33
This is really important and I know we've talked about this because I sent you articles about Orange Theory Fitness and other fitness type of businesses out there because, listen, we have to be aware of what other people are doing. You can't just poo-poo everyone out there. You got to see what's going on and see. You know, people might be doing something better than what CrossFit is doing Absolutely and you have to see it. But they are having issues because they're doing exactly what you said was happening at CrossFit Hoboken they are discounting new members so that they're paying much, much, much less right now than existing members and it's driving a lot of discontent just because what you said, they're devaluing the membership and the people who are experienced Right, and the people are there feel robbed because they're like why is this new person paying so much less than I am? Now?
20:31
In a situation like CrossFit Hoboken, where it's in an area where there are a lot of young people, there's a lot of turnover, you know there's a lot of transients. You know young adults who just kind of come in and out. They have jobs, are working in the city, they move out. You know young adults who just kind of come in and out. They have jobs, they're working in the city, they move out. You know that might work for a place like that, but if you're in an area where you value stability, you value growth and member retention, that is a terrible way to drive members, because everyone I can guarantee you this if they know the person who is sitting right next to them doing those ring rows had paid half of what you paid.
21:06
That's a terrible feeling and it also is like why am I paying this? What is it worth? To the owners? It's only worth what the new member cost is Right. And the other thing is, the people who are Groupon shopping and I know this are looking for cost. They're not looking for value, they're not looking for quality of product, they're looking for the cheapest product. And so the minute their Groupon expires, they're on to the Barry's Bootcamp or the Orange Theory or the F45. And so to try to pull members that are going to actually stay with those type of discounts is very, very difficult.
David SyvertsenHost
21:44
Yeah, I mean that's a great point. Those are great points in that you know who are you actually bringing into your gym as an owner. When you put yourself on some sort of discount code like that and I don't want to criticize any owner out there that does some sort of discount or you know New Year's deal, like that's a, that's a part of marketing that you need to do. But there is a line that you can't go past because of the loyalty factor to your members. Um, and to me, you could probably start to hear my like, where I lean towards as an owner. I think that the retention is much more important and impressive than new members. Um, when I was a new gym owner and we had, you know, 14 members, then, yeah, I mean, I got asked by friends and family all the time. So, how many more members did you get? How many more members did you get? And like you almost get addicted to this like we got six this week, we got two, we got zero, we lost one. That that is the inception. That's kind of like your right of passage as an owner. Like you do need to get the numbers to a certain point to operate the business. So, you know to early gym owners yes, you need to get those new bodies in the door, but we're talking more about hey, we're established, we're here.
22:50
We ask ourselves all the time Chris and I used to talk about this all the time Could you get another hundred members in this gym right now, and I think hundreds are probably a little aggressive, but let's say 50. All right, could we get another 50 members in this gym? You do the math. It does this to your revenue, it does this to your profit, it does this to your plans for the future of the business. Blah, blah, blah. Right, my answer is yes, but I also know that if you got 50 new people in the next month, I bet 40 of them, or 30, 30 to 40 of them would want early morning classes. That's just the trend. I feel like every two out of every three new members that come to our gym want early morning. It's just a very popular time to work out.
Sam RheeCo-host
23:31
That's our demographic. We have a lot of young parents, yep, or they're working Working professionals.
David SyvertsenHost
23:40
And they need to get their classes in before the rest of their day happens. So my answer beyond yes, can we fit people? Because we have you know we have more classes than anyone. We have 11 to 12 classes per day and I think nine to 10 of them have less than 10 people in them. They're the midday ones, yeah, midday, and even nighttime. There are spots there's a lot of spots open at night where people could come in.
23:59
And this is the struggle that we have right now is I don't want to continue to try and go get more members with marketing and this and deals, because I know I'm fearful that a lot of those people are going to want to come in the morning and because we care about the people that come in the morning and because it is one of the issues that we have in our gym right now is how big those classes are getting in the morning and, among other things that come with that, people canceling and people getting locked out of classes, and you know you never want to have a paying member get waitlisted, you know, yeah, some of it's like, hey, suck it up, find another class.
24:38
The other part of it is, I mean, that's a whole nother topic of discussion. Yeah, uh, to cope with that, but that's why that's one of my biggest roadblocks is yes, if you put me a gun to my head, yes, I want more members, we want to make more money, we want to spend more money, we want to make the gym better. Yes, I want to bring more money home. Absolutely, that's being honest would say that but not at the expense of the people that are currently coming here, and that's where this is a really tough situation to solve from an owner perspective.
Sam RheeCo-host
25:11
It's so funny when you hear the 6am-ers and they see someone new come in at 6am because they're like oh no, there's another competitor, one more to fight on the signup app. And a lot of them have no idea that it's an issue. One more to fight on the sign-up app.
David SyvertsenHost
25:24
And a lot of them have no idea that it's an issue, so they're just like hey, I'm John.
Sam RheeCo-host
25:32
It's a good problem to have, as an owner, honestly, that people are fighting over, or that you have a class that's very popular, or classes and this is another topic, like you said, and we have to, and we've been wrestling with this for like 15 different ways and we're still wrestling with it and hopefully maybe we can help figure out some things that might make it better for our members. But you're right, it's just a really hard situation and I go back and forth with it all the time with you, like some days I'm like, uh, we got to get stricter. Some days we're like, no, we got to figure out other ways of doing this. Yeah, I don't know, I think you've seen it from a growth perspective and and now you're seeing it from a more of a mature growth, like built out gym perspective- how do you feel about that right now?
26:25
Just the shift, how these next 10 years are going to be better than the first 10 years In terms, because you're almost, like I'm afraid of growing bigger. Yeah, absolutely.
David SyvertsenHost
26:33
Which is such a weird thing to say. It is, it is. And I remember I've talked to a couple other guys that are involved in the ownership now and they ask you are you afraid of taking chances? Involved in the ownership now? And they ask you like are you like, no, are you afraid of taking chances? Are you afraid of you know, being uncomfortable? And I'm not at all. The discomfort is is nothing that makes me shy away from it like I. I've embraced that. I think CrossFit has done that to me, that like, the more uncomfortable you can make yourself, the better you'll be in the long term. But I think one of my personal struggles as an owner is I care about the people so much that I do think there's some times where I care about them more than I care about the business getting better and making more money.
Sam RheeCo-host
27:10
This is where.
David SyvertsenHost
27:11
As a business partner. Does that bother you?
Sam RheeCo-host
27:13
Well, I feel like we really do need, as a mature gym now we do need to focus on our new members in a big way that maybe we haven't really focused attention. I know how I feel and I know my bias, so I'm like now I'm like kind of trying to fight that bias and say like, yeah, listen, if anyone sticks for more than three months, I'm like kind of leaning in on them because I want them not to feel like, because we always have all these stories, right, oh, remember in the day we used to do this. Oh, like we do this and this and this.
27:43
And I know the new guys are always like well, when do I get to start talking about my story? Can I be part of that group? Right, and I don't want it to be an experience where they're always feeling like the junior, the newbie or whatever. And so they need to sort of make their own path and have their stories and then, like, have their culture too. And, like you said, the ones who've been around for two or three years, they've built this gym as much as anyone else has over the past two or three years, absolutely. And the new guys who have come in like there were a couple new guys last, or men and women last yesterday and I was like, look at these guys. They are fearless to come in with all these people have been around for five, six, seven, eight, nine years and they're just killing it, just giving it their best effort and that's what made Bison what it is today and they deserve.
David SyvertsenHost
28:38
if we're still here 10 years from now, we're going to look at those people that you're talking about right now and be like dude, they got us.
Sam RheeCo-host
28:42
Right, and so I feel like we actually need a little more focus on the newer members that are in our gym and not be afraid of like kind of really lifting them up a little bit.
David SyvertsenHost
28:56
So that's a perfect leeway. It's almost like we've done this for a while. Sam Got some chemistry here Of a discussion that we had with someone with yesterday. Uh, we had, we were at a birthday party last night together and we got talking to someone that's been crossfitting essentially almost as long as as us, maybe a little less, but he's been doing it six, seven, eight years and he falls into the demographic, these personal life situation of countless crossfitters of. Hey, I started kind of soon after college because I needed something to kind of keep my momentum going. I was young, I was fit, I was available, I had a lot of free time, my body felt great. I'm still in like that prime stage of my life. I didn't have kids, right, wasn't married, it was just me, my job and my workouts Fast forward eight, nine, 10 years, and this is applicable to myself, to so many people in our gym, I would say the majority of our membership right Is, the life has changed so much that they are no longer the fire breathers.
30:02
In some ways, they've actually become the person that criticizes the fire breather. Yeah, oh, you still compete. Oh, you still work out five days a week, oh, you still want to work on handstand walks and snatches Like bro? That's not me anymore. I want to work out, feel good, look good and maybe hang out with some friends at the gym.
30:22
And that, to me, is the overwhelming majority of CrossFitters worldwide, because a lot of us started in that 2010 to 2014 era and life has changed so much in that decade and, by the way, we're 10 years older. Right, we've had some scrapes and bruises. Right, you know we've had some scrapes and bruises. Ok, that where does, is it a CrossFit affiliates? Are our responsibility to now tailor everything we do here, from programming to competitions, to our presence on social media, to the message that we try to preach to people?
31:01
Is it our job to now scale things back, make things easier, because these founding fathers, if you will, of both CrossFit and of Bison are no longer that into it anymore? Or do you say, hey, guys, lack of a better term, thank you for getting us here. We got to go find some more of those fire breathers to get us to the next 10 years. That's exactly what you're talking about right now, and you never want to push someone to the side, but I also don't want to hold their hand and then hold that person's hand. I have I have two hands. I can't hold 600 hands. You know, like at some point they're going to have to make their decision on, hey, do I still want to be a part of this thing or not? And as an owner, you have to find this like middle ground of holding somewhat, holding their hands or every now and then grabbing their hands, bringing them back and also finding some new blood.
Sam RheeCo-host
31:54
Tough call. That was a really. It was such an interesting conversation with him because he met, he mirrored every demographic that we see in CrossFit. He mirrored every demographic that we see in CrossFit and that is the person that mirrored the rise and kind of fall of CrossFit in terms of a company. Like you guys all started, like you said, young enthusiastic. Crossfit was starting to really take off in the media. Like ESPN was televising, rich Froning was huge. Like all these guys were like just were on the game. Like ESPN was televising Rich Froning was huge. Like all these guys were like just jumping on the bandwagon. Regionals started taking off and everyone started really getting into it. And then, as you said, crossfit hit a bunch of roadblocks or it had issues. Everyone got older and then what you could do at 25, you're not doing at 35.
David SyvertsenHost
32:41
Right, Unless you just like, went all in and really took care of yourself and like you know what you like really drank the kool-aid and never got off it, which again we see people in their 40s and 50s crushing it, but like they're really into it, they don't. They don't have much going on outside of that right.
Sam RheeCo-host
32:58
So now he has a pretty jaded view of CrossFit in general and also, like you said, the people who are really chasing after it. So is he valuable? He's really a valuable member. He goes to his 5.30 class in the morning. He has the crew that he likes. Once in a while he's like, oh I wonder if I can still hit a 225 snatch. He still participates in the open and does quarters, but he is not the future of CrossFit. When CrossFit HQ is looking at members and member growth because Don Fall, 10 million by 2030 or whatever it is are you going to build your business on that demographic? And I would say HQ is like no. And so, as an affiliate, are we going to say are we building our growth on someone like him, or do we have to find the people, like you said, who now are discovering CrossFit for the first time, getting really enthusiastic and really sort of pushing us forward?
David SyvertsenHost
34:05
yeah, like the. The tone of this conversation right now is kind of leading me down this path of saying, hey, we are, oh, we should always be trying to spread the crossfit word, the crossfit message to people that don't know about it or don't have not had a good experience with it, and we, we can provide something better. We should always be trying to bring them here and show them how we do it, and then let make them, and then have them make their call, whether they don't, whether or not they want to stay, but you don't want to do it at the expense of pushing others to the side. However, and I do feel that way, there's a loyalty factor. However, all right, there's an asterisk next to that comment. The people that I am talking about, the former fire breathers, that kind of touch and go. I like crossfit, I don't like crossfit, I don't want to get hurt. Hey, I'm gonna, you know, accept this and have to scale things and change my and check my ego at the door. It's their responsibility to stay there too. You know, they can't. They can't expect the daily invite to come work out, or even the weekly, or even the monthly At some point.
35:06
I think it's almost like raising children. It's like, you know, when they're young, like my son's age, you really have to do everything for them, include wipe their butt, like everything. Like plan every meal, plan every bedtime, get them out of bed. Getting a text from my wife right now saying I'm trying to get him out the door, right, it's like everything, but they start going through this teenage. Now, your kids, they're a little bit more independent. Sasha is more mature than almost every adult I know. Right, like, and that was. It's a parallel to what we have here. At some point you can't control everything a college-aged daughter does. You're still there every now and then I'm sure you have to pull her in and have a conversation with her, and or she probably does that to you.
35:52
But at some point do you understand this parallel I'm trying to make with like early on, and that's why I think they're some long-time crossfitters struggle with. This is when they're early, they get a lot of attention, especially when the gym is early too, because the gym is small. At some point I'll never take a single member for granted, ever, and I mean that with everything I have. However, as you get deeper into it, you probably won't get as much attention as you used to, because you're now that college-aged kid, we're like hey, I know you know what you're doing and you also know the good and bad decisions about this. You also know that you need to kind of buck up a little bit and suck a few things up. And yes, the row-run workout on Friday. I know some of you guys hated that workout. You got to show up yourself and freaking do it. You do, and I can't hold your hand while doing that, while also trying to bring some new people along that have never done that workout.
Sam RheeCo-host
36:49
That's why, as we get to the size that we are, it gets really hard because, as coaches and owners, you can personally contact people if you have 50 members, 100 members, 150. Now you're getting a 200, 250, 300. And now it's like it gets to be a challenge to personally connect all the time, constantly. And there are, if you go to like Two Brain or all these other like analytic type, affiliate assistance type companies, they will tell you like you have to reach out x number of times to people, to you know, for member retention and this and that. But you're absolutely right, like as as an athlete in class I know I'm a relative like. Would I like more contact in terms of, you know, coaching or this or this or that? Yeah, everyone would. Yeah. But I also know, like the guy who just started three or four months ago, who's over there struggling, who you used to be, yeah, Like he, he like the.
37:56
I know the coach needs to really work with that guy and I know what I need to do anyway. I mean, I've been this for 10 years. Listen, if I wanted to get really better, I'd video myself, I'd reach out, I've done all those things. So what the F do I need the coach to sit there and be like okay, sam, you know what I'm saying. Turn your knuckles down.
38:15
For the 1800th time. Right, like you're not listening to me, because I've coached you this like 50 times, but do it again. So there's a balance. As a coach, as owners. We're not saying ignore all of your experienced athletes Never. But on the other hand, you are a valued resource to us. We rely on you. We want you to step up. Don't be a time suck or a resource suck. We also need to, but we also need to connect with you on a regular basis. You know value you and I do that. I try at least as a coach. I think all of our coaches do For our stalwarts as well as the new people. But you can't be too. And we have a couple of people who are like the OGs, who are like kind of needy about that. Yeah, and you're like, yeah, I mean, come on.
David SyvertsenHost
39:05
Yeah, and it's again like long relationships. Now. We've had some people, I've been working with some people as members eight, nine, ten years now, which is amazing to me. I love it and but it's like any relationship, right, the further a relationship goes together, you start to be like, oh, doing this again. You know, like I know to expect from a lot of people in certain situations and I know people know to expect from me in certain situations as well Right, it's not just a one way street there, but it's a good other, good leeway to the athlete perspective, this member perspective. And again, again, we both have been members of a gym, not a coach, not an owner, all right, so we do have experience in this regard.
39:41
If you are a member of a gym, what can you do? I'm big on what can you do to help solve an issue. So if you are a member of a gym and you're saying, man, these guys all they want to do is just get more members and more money, and I'm the one that kind of working out in the back corner with a broken barbell and I don't have a pull-up bar in a box. I want, because these 18 new people took my spot. I don't have a pull-up bar in a box. I want, because these 18 new people took my spot.
40:05
What is one thing as a member that you can do other than have an open conversation with the owner or coach? Like, hey, I just want to let you know. I feel like I'm being pushed to the side a little bit, which is okay. I would have that conversation with anyone. Just be ready for a response, though. You don't just take that. I'll have a response ready for you and we could have a mature conversation. But what are some other things you could do other than I don't want to say complain, but what are some things you can do other than talking to a coach? As a member of a gym that sees this conundrum occurring hey, they want to retain me as a member, but they also want to get some new people in here. What can you do? And I'm thinking more of like a mindset type.
Sam RheeCo-host
40:46
You know, I know we have people that feel that way and they won't speak up, but they're always like, yeah, sam always puts me in the back for the running workouts. He doesn't care about me, like how come he's always just now-.
David SyvertsenHost
40:59
You could always put me in the back, sam, on a running workout, just so you know you could always put me in the back on a running workout.
Sam RheeCo-host
41:03
Don't put me in the back. I freaking hate running. I need all the help I can get. Put me in the front, please. And so you know, and I'm going to throw that back because I know that we have people like that that feel neglected, that feel overlooked, that feel like they're not getting the contact that they would or should or used to get Underappreciated, Underappreciated, and they don't feel strong enough or confident enough to come to you and say hey, listen, why am I always the one being ignored? And I have a feeling we might have lost people just because they just stopped showing up because of that.
David SyvertsenHost
41:41
That's where I think this retention versus new member discussion really centers back to is you will lose people over that you will. If you're constantly chasing after new members, you will lose people. And when we wrap this up in a little bit, I'm going to really kind of talk about where I have a strong lean towards and I'll give a reason why. But at the same time, I never, ever want to lose a member because they feel like they. It wasn't as warm as it used to be, it wasn't as welcome it was, I wasn't getting as much attention. I would be upset by that. And if anyone does leave or has left and like, hey, dave, I'm one of those people, I do think my first reaction would be I would apologize and I would try to, you know, figure out when did this happen? Why did it happen? What could we have done differently? Is there really anything we could have done differently? Right, because I don't think it's a really ever a clear cut issue of why that happens. But if I'm a member and I'm starting to feel that way and I don't have the confidence to go and complain about it, because some people literally don't want to bring it up because they don't want to be a liability to go and complain about it. Because some people literally don't want to bring it up because they don't want to be a liability, they don't want to make you upset, or they're just not complainers in general. Right, where I think that what I would do is, if I really can't go have a discussion about it, what I wouldn't do is I wouldn't talk about it with others, because that's when the infighting starts. Right. We bring up the gossip and the culture Se starts right. We bring up the gossip and the culture and Seen that that's where I think that would be a mistake by the athlete to start. If you are going to talk about this, if you are brave enough to talk about feeling that way, it should be with the person that is in charge of the place. So the gossip stuff would obviously need to be pushed to the side. Part two of it would be this A lot of athletes that feel underappreciated, people in general that feel underappreciated I.
43:30
The question I always want to ask them is how often do you show appreciation for those people? How often are you thinking about the other people in the room that also need to feel that appreciation and attention. Nine times out of 10, from my experience doing this and just working with people in general, when someone says they're underappreciated or I'm not getting the attention, it's usually coming from a very selfish place, and I think that across the community thrives, a culture thrives, when you have a room full of selfless people that are constantly not some of the time, constantly thinking about others more than themselves. And if you can shift your mindset to that selfless approach, right where you're putting others before yourself. I think it's kind of easy to realize and see that in most gyms and I think this is one of them where you're not really single-handedly being pushed to the side, it's that attention that you are really wanting is going to other people. The argument can be hey, dave, it's always the same people. You're always like. I had someone recently come up to me and say you're always talking about football with your buddies during class. I'm like, ah, damn it. Well, you do, I know and I'll take that, I won't argue, I won't fight it, I'll take that, I won't argue, I won't fight it Like I actually have made a tangible effort to get to every person in a class and talk about something beyond.
44:47
Crossfit Classes are 30. It's a little bit more difficult, but you have to do like this little I'm even keeping track of who's partnered with who on Saturdays oh good idea. So like when I'm not coaching Right To make sure that I'm not double dipping that same pair. There's little things that you can do, and you have to be humble about that. If someone says, dave, you keep putting these people together or you keep talking to these people during the downtime of a 6 am class, the coach side of it needs to be humble enough to be like you know what. Maybe they're right, maybe I need to do a better job, and now I'm going to make the effort to do that.
45:18
The athlete side of it, though you also have to consider that you're not the most important person in the room and you probably never will be. And you might not even be the second most important person in the room and you probably never will be, and if you can go down that path, I'm not demeaning you at all. I'm saying no one in the room is more important than the other. So maybe you don't deserve that attention, maybe you don't deserve that appreciation. And then I like to do the extreme ownership side of it. What do you do to show the appreciation of others in the room? You know, that's one thing I've worked with Rafi with the mindfulness stuff is how often do you spend time just being grateful and I think that can solve a lot of these issues with people that are looking at a gym that you've been at for eight, nine years and now, all of a sudden, you feel like no one's looking at you and in most cases, sam, it's not true.
Sam RheeCo-host
46:06
I agree, and I think one of the things that I find that these people have lacking, when they're unhappy like that, is like they haven't connected as a community with other people as well as they might have or should have. So as a coach, I am particularly aware of people who are new because they haven't really formed a lot of connections with people, and I always am so happy when they finally have a gym buddy or someone else in the class they kind of connect to. And I know a lot of established athletes. They have really tight connections with people so I never worry about them. I don't have to like reach out as much to them because they got their crew Right, they have a clan Right. So as a coach, my goal is to try to see if I can get the ones who are not as connected to connect, and sometimes they naturally do. But sometimes you kind of have to like help it, and I think you're really good at that in the sense, like yesterday's event, the Bison Bowl, which is our intra-gym competition, like it was the way you mastered. It was one you set up, it was unique for this year with the scaled hybrid RX athlete as a trio and then there were no divisions, no divisions, no RX, no scaled, and the workouts were all set up, which was really complicated, so that you could pick and choose which part of it you could do as a scaled, rx or hybrid athlete.
47:33
It was inclusive and challenging and challenging, yeah, and to watch the relatively newer athletes interface with all the, because most people don't know anyone outside their class. That's a good point. So they were mixing with all these different people for like hours, talking to them, working out with them, getting to know them, and it was like mixing everyone up and that got a lot of the newer athletes a great experience in terms of the community, in terms of connecting, where maybe they just felt kind of isolated because they're like I only go to the 415. I don't know anyone else and I don't know that many people in the 415. Now they're like they were forced to like really work with all these people and I got a lot of really positive feedback about that. The other thing is that's really hard to do.
48:18
This is your ninth year of doing that and the way it worked, how the logistics went, how the programming went, how the teams. Now, of course, everyone's going to complain a little bit about the team makeup, but, listen, the fact that it actually was as close as it was for a lot like that. That is where a great gym can be successful in terms of both new member retention and keeping your established members Right, because you're the established members were all there. They really enjoyed it. Yeah, they love it, they. They also met a bunch of new people, because maybe they don't normally like reach out to all the new people, but they had to to. So it's like events like that where a gym can really start to do both retain the new members keep your old members and continue to grow that community.
David SyvertsenHost
49:15
Yeah, it's a group effort there too, like coaches like you and Ash and Liz helping out, and Hawk and De Silva, but also the members, the fact that we have a bison ball and we've had people there competing that are in that stage that we just talked about late 30s kids. Life has changed. They don't perform the way they used to and it's okay, right, but they've been here seven, eight, nine years and they're the ones embracing this. That alone I said this at the podium when I was thanking everyone Like it means a lot to me as a gym owner that people sign up, because it adds credibility to the event itself. That people that have been here for eight years and, yes, maybe they're not what they used to be, whether that bothers them or not, not really relevant they're still there, they're still signing up, they're still trying hard, they're still giving high fives.
49:56
The amount of people in the past two weeks, since the teams have come out, have asked me for the word that you just said this. Hey, can you connect me with you know? Blah, blah, blah, because I need his cell phone. We need to talk strategy for the workout. That's the purpose of the bison bowl fun connection do something you normally wouldn't do working out with people that you don't get to choose to work out with. They're. They're given to you and that's what we do on saturdays as well. I think saturday workouts are always like a microcosm of the bison bowl. It's like you show up as an individual, you get put on a on a pair and whether you like them or not, whether you know them or not, you're going to go take on this 30 to 40 minute bonding suffrage together. So true, um, so that that's that from that athlete perspective. Right, it is. It's a huge responsibility. This topic new members versus retention it is first the owner's responsibility, then the coaches, but the athletes I do think they have a responsibility both from branching out, connecting, but also being aware of where you stand and what's going on around you.
50:55
So, to wrap this up, I want to put both of us on the spot. I'll go first that if we were in a room like we are now and said like hey, gun to your head, you had to make a decision for the next 10 years of CrossFit Bison what is more important to you retaining what you have or getting new people? And nobody listening is allowed to get offended, because I will say I think the answer is truly that it's in the middle. You need both. I mean Accessible Gym is getting new people in every month, but also holding on to the most of their people. And there's retention rates out there that they consider you successful or not successful, and we've always been above that line, not tooting our horn, but I do think it's because we put a lot of attention on retaining and running things like the Bison Bowl. We hired someone, liz, to run events for the gym to connect people.
51:44
So that's all about retention, trust me, that's not about getting new people. So to me, when I look at this from this perspective, I think early on your first three to five years, before you have really a set culture, it's all about getting new people in the door and that will never change. You have to continue to get new people in the door and that will never change. You have to continue to get new people in the door. But from looking at from a perspective of a gym that has over 300 members and we're still growing, by the way, we're still kind of moving that needle up slowly. You know, I, I, the, the, I always come back to like the loyalty factor of. I think it's more important for us to hold on to what we have than getting new people in the door. Don't take that as I don't want to get new people in the door.
52:28
I know for a fact that a lot of members that are here right now will not be here in 10 years. That is a fact. Some are going to get older and don't like it anymore. Some are going to start disliking us or me or new ownership or the programming and they're not going to want to be here. That's part of the game and you have to not be offended by that. And also it's just not for everyone. At some point, I think some people just get sick.
52:53
It's a very trendy business and I'm looking at this article that you sent me, sam Orange Theory franchisees form independent association to address low membership growth and I read it and I'm going to read my response response I sent to Sam. This was not planned, by the way, just looking at it. I said that was a good read. I know fancy business terms and marketing strategies are important, but no mention of personal relationships and very little mention of leadership within the actual franchises. No mention of this being a trend-based industry. No mention of people wanting stimulation.
53:23
The more I read things like this, both from CrossFit and outside of CrossFit, the more I think the people at the top simply do not get it. To wrap that up, I think that the relationship side of a CrossFit gym is vital to the success and I know a lot of coaches and owners that you get burned out of that at some point because it is a 24-7, 365 job and the second you take your foot off the gas. People know you may think you're faking it for a while, but people will know that, hey, they're just not that into me as a person anymore. And that, to me, is usually the beginning of an end of an affiliate. Is you start to really neglect the loyalty, the relationship factor of a CrossFit? So gun to my head, I think retention is more important.
Sam RheeCo-host
54:15
As an athlete, I would say retention, because that's who I am. I'm someone who's been around for a long time. Right, I'm going to just be playing devil's advocate? No, I want you to, and I want to say new members. And the reason being is that is a bigger challenge. It's harder to connect and make new members and grow. You know, get new members and to grow and have them stay with you. Yep, anyone can get new members. It's the retention of new members which is the challenge.
54:45
Yes, and so, as an owner, I love all of our OGs, I love the people who have made this place what it is, yeah, but I know, as an owner, if I don't bring new people in It'll disappear. This gym will die. It will die. So for me, as an owner, I have to use this culture to bring in new people, grow new relationships, make this place better because of that. Otherwise, we'll just be a bunch of old ass people like doing the same thing over and over again. Ten years, yeah, and that, while it might sound like you know fun to just hang out with the people that you know, you can't survive that I even think just within this podcast we've been recording for about an hour.
David SyvertsenHost
55:33
Within this podcast I've started getting pulled towards the new membership line just because of a few things that we've talked about and again, never neglecting. It's a little awkward to say, but you know someone out there is going to be like, oh, they just want to get rid of us. Like no, no, I want people to be added to this community. I don't want the community to leave. I want the beat, because I do believe in this bison community is is really. I've been saying this for, I think, seven, eight years now. It's one of the best groups of people I've ever been around and it's really unique because not everyone here is friends. We don't have long history with each other.
56:02
Agreed, it's just a very unique group of people and imagine how many unhappy people out there would benefit from being a part of it. So to say that you shouldn't go and try and get them would be foolish. But it only works if those people stay. That's right. So, like we said at the start of the episode, the answer is both, but you can really make a strong case that either one of these is more important. My only advice to wrap this up would be if you do own an affiliate, all right. Stay loyal. If you expect loyalty back, all right. Thank you guys. See you next week. Thank you, everybody for taking the time out of your day to listen to the Herd Fit Podcast. Be on the lookout for next week's episode.
