S06E185 CrossFit Open 2025: Analyzing Workout Design and Scaling Challenges
You've completed the CrossFit Open 2025, but do you truly understand what each workout was testing? Coaches David Syvertsen @davesy85 and Sam Rhee @bergencosmetic dive deep into the methodology behind this year's programming, revealing insights that could transform your approach to training.
The first workout wasn't just about lunges and dumbbell movements—it was a deliberate test of your mental endurance and ability to maintain continuous movement for 15 minutes straight. As @davesy85 says, "They purposely didn't make it heavy... As tired as you are, you can always keep moving on a burpee." This accessibility by design serves CrossFit's goal of casting a wider net, especially for first-time Open participants.
The classic thruster and pull-up combination in 25.2 exposed weaknesses in either barbell strength, gymnastics skill, or the mobility required to link these movements efficiently. The coaches note that the thruster "might be the most complete movement in terms of fitness," requiring full-body coordination and excellent front rack mobility.
Perhaps most revealing was the discussion about rest periods versus rep schemes. "I want to challenge all athletes to start thinking about how many breaths am I taking between sets, rather than what should my sets be." This mindset shift could be the key to shaving minutes off your workout times, especially in tests like 25.3 where transitions between stations often consume precious seconds.
The conversation takes a particularly passionate turn when addressing the scaling options. Many of the athletes in the 55+ age group found the scaled movements "thoroughly unsatisfying," arguing that many Masters competitors can and regularly do perform more advanced gymnastics movements than what's programmed. The coaches propose thoughtful solutions that would maintain the integrity of the competition while being more inclusive.
Whether you're analyzing your own Open performance or planning next year's approach, this episode offers valuable insights that bridge the gap between programming theory and practical application. What areas will you focus on improving before the 2026 Open arrives?
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S06E185 CrossFit Open 2025: Analyzing Workout Design and Scaling Challenges
TRANSCRIPT
David SyvertsenHost
00:05
Hey everybody, welcome to the Herd Fit Podcast with Dr Sam Rhee and myself, Coach David Syverton. This podcast is aimed at helping anyone and everyone looking to enhance their healthy lifestyle through fitness, nutrition and, most importantly, mindset. All right, welcome back to the Herd Fit Podcast. I am Coach David Syrupson. I'm here with my co-host, dr and Coach Sam Rhee, and we are in our beautiful upgraded studio here at 265 Greenwood Ave. We are actually in the space of Outlast Fitness, which opens up in probably less than a month. Very soon, and more on that soon, much more on that soon. I'm not nervous at all, really looking forward to that. But yeah, we, uh, we had our studio. We had a bunch of walls knocked down in the gym and I actually don't know if this is an upgrade or downgrade from our studios. Uh, it's looking.
Sam RheeCo-host
00:56
It's looking a little bare bones right now, but I envision what it's going to be and it's going to be amazing. It's going to be awesome.
David SyvertsenHost
01:09
Yeah, going to be amazing. It's going to be awesome, yeah. So we're going to record our next two episodes from this area right now, and we're going to. We just finished 25.3. Sam actually just did it. So I think that some of the fresh thoughts that you have post-workout are going to be really fun to hear what he has to say about that one in particular.
01:16
But what I wanted to do in terms of breaking down the open was not necessarily break down each workout. How did you do, how you know, what could you have done better? I kind of want to break them down from this macro perspective of what. What was that test and what can I do to get better at that kind of test? And one great thing about the open is that you can go and see where you ranked in every single workout, and it's a pretty objective because there's so much data and so many people. You're like, wow, I'm above average here, I'm average there, I'm below average there. What is my plan if I want to use the open as a gauge for my future in CrossFit? So, sam, do you remember what open this was for you? What number Around 10. About 10, yeah.
Sam RheeCo-host
01:57
Yeah.
David SyvertsenHost
01:58
So you're a decade of open fitness into it. Overall, considering the fact that you just finished it, positive, neutral, negative in terms of the macro level programming of the three-week open this year.
Sam RheeCo-host
02:12
This, uh, it was definitely different than the opens we've had in the past. For sure, yeah, like the way they did the program and I'm very interested to hear your take on its skill level sort sort of time domains, movements They've really, and I think and I'm interested to hear what you think their philosophy is now, when you see how they've been programming year after year after year, I think the past three or four years have been radically different than the previous five or six years before that and I think that you can sort of predict or at least see the trend that they're going in.
David SyvertsenHost
02:44
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely different. I'm 14 years in now and I'm one of those guys. Back in the day there was no scaling options in the workout. It was here's the workout, go do it if you can't see later. And obviously that was not the right approach and they fixed it and they'd done a great job with that. But now it's almost made so basic because they're listening to affiliates and people doing it in their garages.
03:05
How inclusive is this? How accessible is everything that we need to get done? And every year I do feel like it's never going to be easier. I never want to turn these workouts as easy because at the end of the day, no matter who does them games athletes included when you watch them do it, it's a very difficult test because of the intensity, and that's part of the reason why CrossFit works with a lot of different kinds of athletes and people is that you can take any workout and if it is quote too easy and I'm going to give actually a few examples of that from this past workout then the response is just do more on broken, go faster. At the end of the day, everyone should feel kind of in a similar way at the end of the workout.
03:43
But let's dive into what each workout was testing and I do like the word test that's an old school Dave Castro thing in that you should always view these as a test, whether you take it seriously or not is what is that workout testing? What did this open test? And you also have to know that before you analyze and criticize a workout or a series of workouts, this is just one part of the season. So the next stage, the semifinal stage, that's where you can. Yes, you'll see heavier weights and harder movements, but there is cohesion between the open and that level and you really can't assess programming until you see those workouts, because this is the first step of the sport. It's the first step of the CrossFit Games, are these workouts? So take it with a grain of salt a little bit that we're just going to kind of look at it from the affiliate perspective. What were these workouts like?
04:34
The first one was the 15-minute AMRAP, where everyone worked out for 15 minutes and it had two bodyweight lube-ins, walking lunges and burpees over the dumbbell and a relatively light dumbbell with relatively light volume. When looking at it from from a big perspective, that to me, this is something that we talked about all year and get your thoughts on what you felt during this workout. That was your ability to move for 15 minutes straight without stopping. That is what that tested. They purposely didn't make it a heavy dumbbell. They purposely did not make it two dumbbells.
05:05
They purposely did not make the lunges with a dumbbell. Right, it was hey, as tired as you are, you can always keep moving on a burpee. As tired as you are, you can go do those lunges. Maybe the dumbbell can get a little spicy on those hang dumbbell clean and jerks. But even with that, you very rarely saw someone put it down. So to me, when we, when we test fitness here and we say, hey, I want to get better at engine workouts, at endurance workouts, really what we're testing there is how good are you at not stopping in a workout? Do you think that is more physical or mentally dependent?
Sam RheeCo-host
05:39
That's mental. Yeah, they made it mental Like you could always do the lunges. You could always do, I mean, you know body weight movements, and I think it was very clear that the trend has been make that first workout as simple as possible. Good point, that's all you needed. And it's funny because I watched a couple. Now you can submit videos online and people can watch them with your submission, for your score, and I watched a bunch of videos just for fun. There are people doing it everywhere. They were doing it at Globo gyms in really odd spaces, and so they really want to sort of get you by saying, hey, just try it. Here's a dumbbell, you got a dumbbell, just do it. Here's a dumbbell, you got a dumbbell, just do it. And so a lot of people, I think, tried it because they didn't have like a wall ball and a rower and you know all this stuff, and I think Castro is deliberately trying to make that as accessible as possible for that first work.
David SyvertsenHost
06:39
Yeah, If you break down, especially especially since COVID, the first workout of every Open since then and this has actually been a trend earlier too as well is that. It's not that they're easy workouts Again, let's get that word out of it it's just they're doable by everyone, Like everyone can do this workout. I have someone really close to me in my life that just started CrossFit this week, that I've known for my entire life in my life, that just started CrossFit this week, that I've known for my entire life, and I'm really looking forward to kind of just maybe in my own head and helping him out chronicling like what it's like to be a a new CrossFitter. And I've already had a few conversations with him. I'm like, oh boy, we got to talk to that affiliate, but in a good way and bad way, but I do want to always think about him Like he did the. He joined during the open. His first open workout was the one we just did.
07:28
Oh, wow, and you would hate to see that being the first workout for someone ever doing the open or the first workout of a season, because it's hard, there's really hard things in there to do and you could say it was doable, inclusive, but at the end of the day it wasn't Like. I know he probably couldn't do some of those movements where last year you had the dumbbell and the burpee, the year before that you had the row to start toes to bar, wall balls cleans and then you had the ring muscle-ups at the end, but with very a little amount of time left. You had box jumpovers, dumbbell, snatch, wall walks. The year before you had wall walks and jump rope the year before that, Meaning there wasn't anything in there that would get someone that's on the fence that would say you know what, I'm not doing it. For example, point two this year thrusters pull-ups, chest bar pull-ups If that was the first workout, you would have a lot of people that are on the fence. Should I sign up or not? Say no, yeah.
Sam RheeCo-host
08:22
No, we had some people actually who didn't even. They were like not sure they did. The first one did awesome at it Cause, like you said, it's a mental challenge and we have a lot of very mentally strong athletes, and then they were like I'm in, yeah.
David SyvertsenHost
08:35
So multiply that by thousands, I bet. Yeah, I mean, I really do think if you screw up the first workout of an open, you will probably see a decline in registrations just because of the first workout. So it's tricky to test fitness with like all these rules and parameters, equipment standards, ease of judging, inclusivity, what do gyms have equipment wise, what don't they have? But the biggest thing is, I think, before you get into the details of any first workout of an open, it has to be something that almost everyone in the gym can do RX, all right. So that's really what that tested on that first workout, guys is, if you struggled on that one, the biggest fix there is undoubtedly conditioning endurance.
09:19
Aerobic work All right Doesn't mean you have to go run three miles a day or hop on a rower every day after class. It means try to be in tune with yourself in classes day to day, week to week, month to month throughout the year and say, hey, can I find these workouts where it's just a battle of hey, not stopping Tuesday this week with a pull up run, push up air squat workout the running, cindy. That's a really good example of being able to just keep your heart rate higher than normal but not blowing up. That's what that tested there. 25.2 was just a very classic squat pull-up workout. You had thrusters, pull-ups, thrusters, chest to bar, thruster muscle very old school to the point where I'm like, guys, let's vary this up a little bit with the programming. Let's vary this up a little bit with the programming.
10:02
But if you cross it, you're going to see this combination throughout the year several times, and I think it might have been. You can make an argument this was the biggest test of fitness because there was heavy, there was high-skill gymnastics and there wasn't a lot of I wouldn't call engine work, because you did have a lot of time. You could have kind of broke things up into sets of two, three, four and still finished, but I do think it might have been the best test of fitness. You've done this combination of standing in the open several times and workouts several times. Does it ever get better? Does it ever get easier?
Sam RheeCo-host
10:36
Well, after you turn 55, it does, because you get to do jumping, pull-ups and chest-to-bar and there are no bar muscle-ups, pull-ups and chest-to-bar and there are no bar muscle-ups in it. So, yes, and the weights got insanely light for the 55-plus crowd. So, yes, it did get easier.
David SyvertsenHost
10:51
We're going to touch on the scaling of the age groups and just the general scales at the end of talking about these workouts. But break this workout down. If this was a good one for you or a bad one for you, why was it good? Why was it bad? It's hard to come up with unanswered. Because you can be a great lifter but really struggle on the rig and you're kind of screwed in this workout. You can be, vice versa, great on the rig but really struggling the barbell, you're kind of screwed. So you really kind of have to break down why you struggled and, to me, why I like it as a blend of fitness.
11:16
Is that a thruster? You have to train the upper and lower body, you have to squat, you have have to squat, you have to press above your head. And then I also like this kind of like a hidden factor to this workout that I think you can break yourself down on is your mobility. Front rack mobility is a huge part of thrusters. You can muscle it and hold it for X amount of time, which we have some guys do. They just palm that thing, but the second you start getting tired. You just can't stay in that position because your mobility is bad and we preach mobility here a lot for a lot of reasons. But can you touch on a little bit of why mobility is important for such a basic but a movement that we see every single year in the thruster?
Sam RheeCo-host
11:56
It's a full body movement, I mean when you're starting from a squat into a full extension, press over your head. I cannot tell you I saw I like actually watching videos online the judge I wouldn't want to judge most of these guys that I saw Soft elbows, oh my God, and just like not squatting to depth and not extending. It's really hard, mobility wise, to be able to maintain that with weight over multiple reps. And so I feel like from a test of fitness and I think Froning said this a long time ago he thought like the thrusters was the most complete movement in terms of fitness. It definitely is.
David SyvertsenHost
12:30
I remember I got asked if you could be told you were only allowed to do one movement for the rest of your life in fitness. What would it be If you wanted to maintain your highest level of fitness? Just one movement. Some people are like running. I'm like, well, you're going to get weak. Some people are like deadlift, but then you're not going to have an engine.
12:46
I think the thruster or the squat clean thruster is it because there's so many things that go into it and I don't want to complicate this, especially for some of you newer guys, but break it down part by part and say like, hey, there's a lot of ways to get better at them.
13:02
Instead of being overwhelmed and be like I have to work on my front rack mobility, I have to work on my overhead press strength and my squat and my torso and my core strength. It's like, hey, there's a lot you can do to get better at that movement. And they've been in every single open, every open. We've had dumbbell thrusters before, but still that movement, that upper, that squat to upper body press, has been in every open. So just in your head, if this performance side, if you struggled in this workout, don't get overwhelmed by how complex it is. Actually have some peace of mind that there's a lot of ways I can get better at it. I do think the squat is probably the squat because that's include your front rack. Mobility is probably the best way to get better at them.
Sam RheeCo-host
13:39
So if you do want to bias yourself there, you need velocity, you need to be able to accelerate, and that's hard for a lot of people to generate that kind of barbell speed on thrusters.
David SyvertsenHost
13:51
The jump rope Okay, that was in that workout Because that's been in every Open as well the double unders, and I think there might have been one where there wasn't, and the volume overall was pretty low. We've seen workouts in the Open that have 100 at a time, five, six, seven, eight times. I mean that is a very different kind of fitness test. But I think this is another thing that we're seeing with CrossFit is they're not throwing these sets of 75, 100, 200 athletes in the open. Maybe the next stage they will. But can you touch on this? You and I both have our struggles with jump rope. We both don't like doing them too many for just the pounding on the joints, but they should be a part of fitness in some way, don't you think?
Sam RheeCo-host
14:37
Absolutely. There's a lot of when you're talking about sort of coordination and learning how to move your body in space. Double unders are a really good test of learning that coordination, timing, rhythm. It's not a strength, not really even a cardiac in some ways, if you're really efficient at them, but I think forcing people to learn how to do those at them, but I think forcing people to learn how to do those and it's a challenge. I know some people for 10 years have really still struggled with doing double unders properly, and so I don't ever think that we should ever move away from double unders. I struggle with them. It's still a challenge for me and scale when you need to if things hurt, of course, but it's a part of fitness, absolutely.
15:16
I think even people who say, say, do single unders, but maybe with a weighted rope, like there's a lot you can do with just a jump rope, yeah, and that would increase your fitness and the point. So I don't mind them throwing like 42 double unders, 30, some double unders, like even when I suck at it on any given day, yeah, I can sort of get myself through it yeah, I think what you touched on there and to wrap this one up, this workout up is coordination when you're really tired is a huge part.
David SyvertsenHost
15:46
We talk about strength when you're tired like, hey, do a workout, lift after, uh, but being able to and I think that's where I struggle a lot like even bobby came up to me yesterday's bison water on the sat with jump rope he goes dude, your hands are so far back and you do double unders. I'm like, really Like I didn't even realize. When you get tired, you really do start losing concentration on where you are in space, and I saw that on the rig as well. I've seen people that can do muscle-ups all day throughout the year, but the second you get to that fatigue, it's almost like they're. They mentally forget how to do them, they forget to extend their hips and they try to chicken wing or yank themselves up there, and that's sort of something that we can all focus on throughout the year, because we do. We preach to you guys don't always pursue the score of today's workout. It can work to a point, but it caps your potential. And if you are performance-based, I think you need to have days or even periods of the year where you are really being present with your movement, the quality of movement, especially when you're tired, rather than how many can I do on broken, even if they're sloppy Absolutely the last workout that you just did and this is going to be fresh, as Sam says Sam, just he just crushed it Team Iron, what's up.
16:49
And this was the workout. That was also for time, with a pretty long cap, and when I say long cap, I mean there are people that did this under 10 minutes in the world and the cap was 20. So, no, I know this is not a long cap for everyone, but for, compared to the fastest times, it was a much longer cap than the four time workout in week two. And you could make the argument that this was a test of fitness because there was very mixed modal. Mixed modal means to me there's engine there. You had the condition, you had the rowing weightlifting in there, you're the deadlift, clean and snatch, and you had body weight skill gymnastics and the wall walk. So it's a very cross-fitty test. Is that how you felt? On that one?
Sam RheeCo-host
17:28
yes, people can get hitched up on so many different levels for this. So I talked to about 15 athletes and they're like, those deadlifts are really heavy for me. Or those wall walks, it's really hard for me to do those, or so like there was a lot. Or the row like even for some of the athletes like just rowing 50 cows hard is like a challenge. So for everyone they kind of face it with their own perspective in terms of what was the hard part for that for them, for the good athletes or not good, but the ones who have the weight, have the skill level, then it becomes a mental challenge to really get through it.
18:06
So I think every athlete who faced it had their own personal challenge. Someone like you who feels reasonably comfortable with all those movements. It's like can I hang on? Can I grind through it? Can I get through this in a in? You know, and and not stop? Uh. And then for everyone else it's like okay, how fast can I get my my row time? You know, can I get my five wall walks done without like having to like burn out and wait? You know, can I actually do 25 deadlifts at? You know, whatever that weight is?
David SyvertsenHost
18:35
yep, so it's a challenge this one to me is that was the best test of. Do you know yourself like? Do you know what you're good at? Do you know what you're bad at exactly? And that's something you can pay attention to throughout the year. And in a gym like this at bison, you have so many good athletes at at different movements. You have your lifters here, you have your gymnast, you have your engine people and you could always use them as a gauge. Hey, I'm getting closer to this person, I'm getting further away from this person. That's where I think keeping track of scores is really important, not because you win or lose. It can give you a really real time gauge of where you're at throughout the year.
19:09
And to me in this workout, if you did get held up at a certain part it's. I mean you probably got held up at the lifting that I got. I started getting held up at the lifting, the cleans and the snatches. You see other people get held up on the wall walks. Other people just get to the road and they can't do it. Here's another thing about this workout it might be hard to do if it's in the rear view mirror for you right now, but how much slower was the first row than the second row or vice versa. If I did my first row in three minutes, my second one took me 445. That's a really good indicator to me that you have not figured out what your paces should be on a machine. You just kind of just row until it's over and you go and move on. You get out of breath. You think you're doing your job. I really do think it helps to know exactly what you can do on a rower.
19:53
The amount of times that I had athletes come up to me in this workout and the previous and say, hey, my rep scheme is going to be this. I'm like that's all, and you could tell. It was written in code on a piece of paper with dashes and dizz. I'm like, okay, not once did I hear someone say I'm going to rest five seconds in between sets. I'm going to rest 10 seconds in between sets. It was just what my rep scheme is. I want to challenge all my, all the athletes here at Bison to start thinking about how many breaths am I taking between sets, rather than what should my set, what should my sets be? Um, because it's really hard to determine, like if I told my brother who did his first open, his first open workout, I said, hey, do fives on the deadlifts. If you rested a minute in between those sets, or five seconds, you're calm. You're talking about completely different stimulus, absolutely. Do you ever think? Do you think time when you're taking your rest? Are you thinking?
Sam RheeCo-host
20:50
feelings slash breaths a little of both, I think. When I saw the pros do it, like dalton peber, he did singles on the cleans, yeah, but it was the most efficient, fast singles you've ever seen. Yep, and there's rumors.
21:03
Those guys knew the workout before now, but it's all right I will say that the um, the rest, is the critical part of it, like when someone wants to redo this workout, you know it's like where are you going to make up the time? You're not making up by necessarily rowing faster. Or you know, like you said, your rep scheme, it's how much rest are you taking in between all of your sets? And I could feel that while I was doing this, especially at the end, I was like I didn't even want to look at the clock because I was afraid how much time I was wasting, yeah, in between, uh, while I resting. But I knew it. I was like the only way, it's not the singles, it's not the reps of three or five or unbroken, it's I'm standing here doing nothing and I know that I just need to get back to the bar. And everyone said that after I, before I started, they're like just get back to the bar. It's insane how much time you can kill thinking it's only three Yep, and it's like 15.
David SyvertsenHost
22:00
Complementary movements like this right, meaning they don't run into each other back to back. All right. So you go from a very upper body dominant movement of the wall walk to very lower body dominant of the barbell. I know your arms are pulling and hanging, but still it's a lower body dominant movement when you're lifting a bar off the ground. And I think it's something that if you have any knowledge of programming whatsoever, basic or not, you have to know that the muscles you need to do that next movement are there, at least for the start. So, like I think it was really fun to watch someone they knew and they know that they put that barbell down. They're exhausted. You can do a wall walk and then you might need a break, but you don't need the break as the walk to the station. Lay on the ground. Wait 20 seconds, right. If you multiply that by five, six, seven, eight transitions in that workout, that's probably a minute right there. For people that want to get a minute faster, that's where it's at.
Sam RheeCo-host
22:50
It's universal. If you record your workout and you watch it, you're like what am I doing? I'm just standing there, yeah, and why is everyone yelling at me? And it makes me cringe every time I watch myself, because I'm I'm the same way.
David SyvertsenHost
23:01
I'm like whoa, I waited way too long yeah and yeah I mean go back to videotaping the workouts, especially something like that you can really see, because, at the end of the day, guys other than the wall walk right, the snatch jellyfish, clean, the movement itself. Everyone does them basically in the same amount of time. So it's just a matter of how long you're resting between how long you rested before you picked it up. So like that that's I want to challenge athletes, as you start planning out workouts for the next year, is start putting more thought into how long is your rest, how many breaths are you taking, how do you physically feel before you start moving again, much more often than what is your rep scheme, because I don't think the rep scheme helps that much.
Sam RheeCo-host
23:39
I will say, if you are a monster on the machines, that helps. I saw the video where you were like unloading at the end and you sent it and it was like 2100 for your final 50 cows and I was like dude, you can't, that's pretty unique that you know that, yeah, the row is always comfortable.
David SyvertsenHost
23:56
But it's also like I knew. Like I knew what to, I knew when to start pushing. Like you get to 20 cows and like, all right, start going. You get to 30. All right, now it's go. But it's because I've. I've done it several times. Experience always helps. But I'm also very aware when I'm working out Like when we did we just recently did the 500, 1000, 2000 meter rows right, yes, okay, when we do those for time, I know I don't want to do it again either. But with that said, I know, hey, when there's about a minute left, I could usually just go where it used to be 20 seconds. But then I was like, wait, if I row with 20 seconds, I could have pushed a little bit earlier. And that's where you just had to be present with it. Don't overanalyze it and stretch yourself out. Just be a present athlete mentally.
Sam RheeCo-host
24:41
And I think it does help out a lot. Do you think most of the athletes were happy with their performances for the three workouts overall at our gym, or not?
David SyvertsenHost
24:47
I think most were. But I do think in any open I have to make sure everyone knows there's some luck involved, right? Example like Bobby and I were joking around like CrossFit threw me a bone this week. Like rowing, no, squatting like medium barbell that's the specialty. Right Doesn't take a lot of skill, doesn't take a lot of strength, mental fortitude, whatever you want to call it, and so like that. But I told him if that was a squat workout, if those barbell movements were back squat, front squat, overhead squat, I would have gotten smoked. The lower body capacity is not there.
25:19
So before you get upset or happy, I don't want anyone getting too happy about it. I don't want getting too upset. I want us all as close to the line as possible. There is luck involved in programming, especially in a three-week open. So to answer the question are people happy about their performance, right? Other than the cliche answer that it's individual, I do think people are happy generally speaking.
25:42
But I also know some of these people that put a lot of work into the past year and were trying to reach a certain threshold whether it's a percentage or whatever right, that a few of them will not be happy and I want to make sure they know. Some of it was just you got a little unlucky with programming and I think that's really important to know, um, and that's part of the reason why crossfit, you have to really you have to work on so many things. You can't just focus in on one area because it'll probably leave you short in others. So the last part of this episode I really want to get into, the last is kind of like um bison's challenge to crossfit and whoever runs the opening programs whether it be Adrian, dave, a staff I think there needs to be improvements. I don't want to talk about the quality of the workout test, the fitness test themselves. If you look at it from like a wide lens, it's a good test of fitness. All right, fitness will rise, blah, blah, blah.
26:31
I want to challenge them with their scaling and I have an idea because I have a lot of people that have said Dave, like jumping pull-ups, are you serious? That was me. Yeah, sam's a very high level, 55 plus year old athlete. We have others, one that was at the games last year watching them do jumping pull-ups and not do muscle-ups, to me was it was silly.
26:52
It really was, and I understand why they're doing it and I wouldn't want anyone to criticize my programming without having conversation about it. So it's a little unfair for me to say this without any response, but I've been paying attention to this for a long time. I think the scaling is really outdated and I think it's a classic situation of hey, this is the way we've always done it and in some ways, that is the right answer. In a lot of ways I would even say most you're not evolving and I think with an aging group in CrossFit that can still do these gymnastics, you got to open the door to them the 55 plus year olds still doing high level gymnastics in the open. What do you think about that?
Sam RheeCo-host
27:34
I wholeheartedly agree and I think the shortcoming is is I don't think anyone involved in programming on the CrossFit HQ level is over 55. And that I guarantee you. I'm like you be 55, you do this and now you program this and see what you're right, and that that kind of cheeses me off a little bit because, um, yeah, sure, when I was under 55, I didn't really care what the over 55 people were doing, but this was the first year I did it and I was like this was thoroughly unsatisfying. The wall walk as well. Yes, the scaled wall walk.
David SyvertsenHost
28:06
Because you do wall walks all year. You do muscle ups all year. Yes, now you're never going to do them again in the open.
Sam RheeCo-host
28:11
Is that the? And you have to ask what is the philosophy for that? Is it like? I can only think of a couple reasons why they would do that. One is they're afraid that 55-year-olds are going to get injured by doing more complicated movements. Well, I think that's BS because, everyone is pretty much at the same risk, and if you don't feel like doing it, you can always do scaled 55+. Is it that you don't think the 55-plus can do these movements? And that's BS, because we know tons of 55 year olds.
28:38
Yes, who can do those movements, yep. So for me, whatever rationale they have to do these scales, the way they are is just wrong. Yeah, I agree, and I don't think that they are doing any favors and I pretty much guarantee if Dave Castro is still programming this at 55, he's going to change it, no doubt, like.
David SyvertsenHost
28:59
I know that and and some things I know about the inner works and have crossed it, Like I wonder if people are actually truly afraid to step up and challenge him. I don't know, I'm just going to throw that out there and that's. I've been programming at this gym since day one. I, oh I, beg for feedback. Negative criticism day one I beg for feedback. Negative criticism, constructive criticism. I have to fight about it but I like, because you never want to be, because I am biased, like I will say, I am biased in programming. It's impossible for someone to program and not be a little biased. Not necessarily what I want to do I think I've gotten away from that but I am biased towards what I think what should be done. And that doesn't necessarily mean you're right.
29:41
And I do question people within CrossFit. Are they willing to challenge Dave Castro and is he humble enough to really take time and break down? Do 55-plus-year-olds never do a wall walk again? They never do a muscle-up again? I'm not on board with that at all and I think that with the weightlifting I can understand. In my opinion there's a little bit more scientific evidence, like, hey, maybe you guys don't need to do those crazy weights, but the gymnastics is a lot more sustainable and I see that as an affiliate owner Like I'm on board honestly with putting your weights down a bit. We see that with level one, level two, level three here, but the gymnastics I think you should be able to stick to the same, especially when this is a test of fitness that eventually leads to semifinals in the games that have muscle ups and high level gymnastics. So I think there's lack of cohesion with yes, this is the first test of the CrossFit Games, but not for the 55-year-old masters. We're going to have you guys do jumping pull-ups.
Sam RheeCo-host
30:47
I think if someone wants to compete at a high level, you should be able to let them display their ability on the rig, absolutely because if you're not getting tested at the open level, you're going to have to now test them at the semifinals level, and so you just wasted and sorry.
David SyvertsenHost
31:04
And what You're going to have people making semifinals that are not qualified. That's exactly right.
Sam RheeCo-host
31:08
That's the problem you didn't screen. So now you got to do another, a real screening test at the semifinals. At the semifinals, well, you just wasted three workouts, or at least one workout where you could have screened, pre-screened, a lot of these people. So they're like, oh, you can't, like you should be able to do a bar muscle up. Now, what are you going to test them in the semis? Because you didn't test them in the open. You have to. And so it's like, yeah, so now you have to do, and that semi for Kathleen or whomever else, tracy's going to make it. That's a very compressed time period to do what it's like a weekend, yeah, four days, four days. And to do four events yeah, dude, that randomness, there is so much higher.
David SyvertsenHost
31:52
And you have people that can't do gymnastics that are going to qualify for that stage. Yes, and you're going to have people that can do gymnastics that do not qualify. That is correct. So what are we doing here? There's a lack of cohesion.
Sam RheeCo-host
32:07
And now you're going to put up these people on stage as quote, the fittest in that age group that have not been screened properly.
David SyvertsenHost
32:15
Yep. So that is where I think this is an issue and there's a way around it, and I think they need to just break everything scaling down for the age groups and literally start from scratch and get some masters athletes in there, get people that have been games athletes, tracy type, people that have coached, competed at the games multiple times over the years, have seen the changes, have experienced them good and bad. All right, sc. Competed at the games multiple times over the years, have seen the changes, have experienced them good and bad. All right, scaling. Last thing on scaling I'm on this board. I've thought about this for weeks now and I'm going to probably try to really talk to someone about it. You should have your RX. Okay, those are the standards, those moves. You can't do it, I'm sorry, you cannot do it. Period, all right. Scaled. There should be multiple options for movements, because we do this all year. Hey guys, here's the RX Scale, however you want.
33:03
We used to write green band, red band. Well, we don't do that anymore, but it's scaled. You're right. You know we have a lot of athletes that want to display. They've worked on pull-ups and that was the second movement of the scaled workout, so they worked out for two minutes. They went home.
33:17
Here we are trying to sell the open to people and good athletes come. They can't do the second gymnastics movement. They don't have a pull-up yet. That's it. It's a two minute workout. They paid 25 bucks for this. We pushed it over and over. Why not give the option to do ring rows or jumping pull-ups, banded pull-up or and Dave, that's going to mess up the leaderboard? For what? No offense to anybody that does scale. If anything, I'm doing this to look out for scaled people. The scaled leaderboard doesn't lead to a next stage. Correct, community Cup. We'll see, but let them be able to pick. Hey, I want to do ring rows instead of a jumping pull-up. We have an athlete here with a significant hip problem. That workout comes in. She can do pull-ups, she can do chest bar. She comes into the gym in a workout that has jump rope, a lot of thrusters, both movements bother her hip. Now she has to start off the workout with 21 jumping pull-ups, which is 95% leg jump capacity. You're not getting the stimulus of Fran when you do that, no.
34:18
You're barely doing any pulling yeah and that to me. If I was scaled athlete, I would feel like they don't care about you. I think the Open needs to change scaled to. Here are your three options. Pick one. What do you think I?
Sam RheeCo-host
34:33
think the argument would be well, and you already answered it, but people are going to choose the easiest option. Some will, so that they can be at the top of the scaled leaderboard. But if that's what you want to do, god bless or I don't know. Maybe you list what the-. Scale, one, scale two, yeah, or like yeah, so I know it makes it more complicated.
David SyvertsenHost
34:53
It does. Now are you going to do that with barbell lifting as well? Right?
Sam RheeCo-host
34:58
So the logistics are a little bit more complicated, but I would say the overall satisfaction for the scaled athletes is going to be much higher and honestly, like you said, who cares about the leaderboard? We can simplify it. Maybe people are not happy that it's not registering that you did jumping pull-ups versus regular pull-ups or banded pull-ups. Yep.
David SyvertsenHost
35:19
So what? Yeah, you put it in your notes section. That's right, if you really care that much. And if you're going to care that much, you better be keeping those notes. That's right. If you're going to complain just because you like to complain when something's wrong and then you forget about it a week later, no offense to you, I'm not really going to care about your opinion that much.
Sam RheeCo-host
35:33
I don't think in 10 years I've ever heard someone proclaim that they were number one on the scale. Right, anywhere Right. Like no one said, I'm top 10 in the scale division ever Right.
David SyvertsenHost
35:46
So who cares? And I do think that when you talk about a leaderboard, your scale, your RX, you have to be as present as possible with the fact that this really is for you. You shouldn't be only using this to compare yourself with people, unless you're a competitor. If you want to compete and put yourself in that kind of tornado, go for it. We'll support you. But, yes, your outlook on this will change. And if you are a competitor, the RX is where you're going to have to lead to that. You're eventually going to have to try to get there. The scale to me. I think we have so many people here that are here for the experience. They want to be part of the community. They want to help Bison out, because it does. It helps us out when they do this and we appreciate it very much. Give them options.
Sam RheeCo-host
36:25
I would say they should experiment, because I know they're going to be like oh the standards. Our sheet is already this long with all the standards in there. Just maybe do one additional option.
David SyvertsenHost
36:34
Yeah, like, give ring rows or jumping pull-ups, right, you know, like the weights I do, and you're never going to come up. So I know the answer would be from them. You're never going to come up with the right answer. I know, like, trust me, I know, with level one, level two, level three, buy some benchmark workouts, given that there is no perfect solution. No matter what you do, there will be a group of people that complain. But to me, I do think they've lost touch with affiliates and athletes that they're trying to get to sign up in an era where registrations are down, that they're not actually trying to challenge themselves. That's where this all circles back to. Are you guys really looking in the mirror and trying to find every possible way to improve open programming for everybody? Way to improve open programming for everybody.
Sam RheeCo-host
37:16
The bottom line is if I'm an affiliate owner, is this helping me that I can offer another option to my skilled athletes? Yes, it's an unqualified. Yes, if I can tell someone, you don't have to do this, you can do this or that, and that's what Foundations is, and that's why it really does help us a lot. Yeah, I like Foundations, it's a no-brainer and makes people feel included.
David SyvertsenHost
37:38
Right.
Sam RheeCo-host
37:39
RX is what it is, yep. They will help us as affiliates if they provide bigger options for scales.
David SyvertsenHost
37:46
Cool, all right. So that's in breakdown, that they open from just a programming perspective, as an individual athlete, as an affiliate, from CrossFit's HQ perspective, what can be better? You're definitely in an era where we need to get things better and I think part of it, just like here at the gym, programming is a huge part of it and really listening to others rather than always thinking you know what's best. So that's our suggestion for you as an athlete suggestion for you CrossFit HQ Can't wait till the open in 2026.
Sam RheeCo-host
38:16
Congratulations to everyone who did the open this year. Just pat yourself on the back first.
David SyvertsenHost
38:20
Yeah, pat yourself on the back. We'll get out there some of the awards that we do here at Bison the top 10% for Bison quarterfinals, the athletes that made semifinals and all these athletes that did it for the first time. I hope you guys can use this as one North Star to kind of keep in the back of your head and train throughout the year. But even if you're not performance centered, I hope you guys had fun. Proud of everyone, this last workout was the perfect ending to the open, with everyone screaming at everyone.
Sam RheeCo-host
38:44
That was the best picture of Matt.
David SyvertsenHost
38:46
We're going to do something with that picture.
Sam RheeCo-host
38:48
That was iconic. You can see the the 1959 in the back. It was like perfect. Yeah, it was like perfect.
David SyvertsenHost
38:54
Yeah, so we really are the magic of the open. Hit Bison several times over the past few weeks and we can't wait until the 2026 open. Hope to see you guys there. Thank you, everybody for taking the time out of your day to listen to the Herd Fit Podcast. Be on the lookout for next week's episode.
