S06E186: As CrossFit Goes Up For Sale, What Does It Mean For The Rest of Us?
The CrossFit ecosystem stands at a pivotal crossroads. With Open registrations down roughly 30% and the company officially up for sale, the community finds itself questioning what comes next for the brand that revolutionized fitness worldwide.
In this candid conversation, coaches David Syvertsen @davesy85 and Sam Rhee @bergencosmetic break down the factors contributing to CrossFit's current challenges from their perspective as experienced affiliate owners. They explore how the boycott by prominent athletes like Chandler Smith and Patrick Vellner created a ripple effect throughout the community, while significant affiliate fee increases have accelerated gym de-affiliations.
Beyond these visible issues lies something potentially more concerning – growing apathy among longtime CrossFitters. This sentiment reflects a deeper challenge for CrossFit than any boycott or business restructuring. As David notes, "My biggest fear if I'm CrossFit why registrations are down is disinterest... it's not people protesting, it's not people just saying my gym's no longer affiliated, it's 'I don't care anymore.'"
The discussion turns to potential futures for the brand under new ownership. Will it become increasingly niche and "cult-like" under traditional CrossFit leadership, or will new owners implement dramatic changes that alienate the core community? The hosts analyze how figures like Rich Froning have become essential bridges between CrossFit's roots and its future, while questioning whether adaptation through complementary training models might be necessary for affiliate sustainability.
For anyone invested in CrossFit's community, methodology, or business model, this episode offers an unfiltered look at where things stand and what might come next. As affiliates themselves, David and Sam bring both critical analysis and genuine hope that whatever happens with the sale, CrossFit can recapture the magic that made it revolutionary.
@crossfitbison @crossfittraining @crossfit @crossfitgames #crossfit #sports #exercise #health #movement #crossfitcoach #agoq #clean #fitness #ItAllStartsHere #CrossFitOpen #CrossFit #CrossFitCommunity @CrossFitAffiliates #supportyourlocalbox #crossfitaffiliate #personalizedfitness
S06E186: As CrossFit Goes Up For Sale, What Does It Mean For The Rest of Us?
TRANSCRIPT
David SyvertsenHost
00:05
Hey everybody, welcome to the Herd Fit Podcast with Dr Sam Rhee and myself, Coach David Syverson. This podcast is aimed at helping anyone and everyone looking to enhance their healthy lifestyle through fitness, nutrition and, most importantly, mindset. All right, welcome back to the Herd Fit Podcast. I am Coach David Syverson. I'm here with my co-host, dr and Coach Sam Rhee. We are in episode number two of this beat-up construction zone here at 265 Greenwood, the future location of Outlast Fitness, which is going to come up in a few weeks. Sam, we are over a week removed from the CrossFit Open, the 2025 CrossFit Open, and this is going to get away from what the workouts were, what Bison did, and we're going to kind of talk about the kind of the landscape of CrossFit business right now.
00:52
The worldwide affiliates, the registrations, were down by a significant number this year. I don't have the exact number yet. I've heard 30-ish percent. 30-ish percent and that's a lot Like 30,000 people wouldn't be that many. 30% is a huge chunk. Over a third or almost a third of people that signed up last year did not sign up this year in terms of total volume, and I want to dive into why we think it is. It's just going to be opinion. We don't have a lot of facts, we're not insiders, we don't like to, we don't talk to that many people on the inside. Is this going to be what we see from our perspective? And then we're going to kind of tie that into the big news that came out a couple of weeks ago that the owners, the financial owners of CrossFit are selling it's for sale. I looked at my bank account. I don't have enough to get it. You don't have a.
01:37
We're going to raise millions of dollars and we're going to raise rates. So it's just a way to help. It's so it helps us buy it. So. But we want to dive into just some of the chatter that we've had. We've had had some really good conversations with ourselves and some people that are a little bit smarter and a little bit more in the know than us in regards to the sale and what's the future of CrossFit is, and I want to touch on that. I don't think it impacts Bison that much, but I do think there is something, something underneath that Bison, from the CrossFit HQ perspective, that can help us. I think that's really the most important component to this. So let's dive into registration first. How dialed in were you with the decline in registration for the Open in the coming weeks?
Sam RheeCo-host
02:21
Because it was kind of like barbell spin wanting chalk up for the Open in the coming weeks, because it was kind of like barbell spin wanting chalk up. I think the pro athletes all who declared that they were not going to do the CrossFit Games this year made a real impact. Okay, I do think that I think it made it okay to sort of make it a pass on the Open to not sign up, and you know I have mixed feelings about that. I mean, I know why the pro athletes are doing that, but unfortunately the side effect of what they're doing affected a lot of other people, including us. Honestly, and when there's less enthusiasm for the Open, when people are sort of hearing that oh yeah, chandler Smith isn't doing it and Patrick Vellner and Brin Fikowski and Annie Thorisotter, it doesn't provide the lift that you would really want to have for the marquee event of CrossFit.
David SyvertsenHost
03:20
It shows that. It kind of proves, even in CrossFit influencers they're a real thing. Yes, it's, whether you agree with it or not. Some of the old school people are like, no, no, no, don't worry about it, they make an impact. It can be positive or negative, and as much as those guys Chandler Vellner they helped build up CrossFit Sure Not only their performance, but their personalities. Yeah, they're great personalities and there are huge reasons why people got into the sport Instagram and watching them and interacting with them. But when they, it just kind of takes some air out of the balloon. When those guys leave, the balloon's still there, but there's just less air in it, and I think that's kind of where the open. I also think the other big reason why you saw numbers down there's a lot of gyms have de-affiliated yes, and you can't do the open if you're not affiliated Correct. So I don't have an exact number yet. We'll probably get one soon, but it was around 11,000 before they raised rates and they raised rates 50% on us last year.
Sam RheeCo-host
04:17
It depended on when you started affiliating, but yes, yes, some actually were by a thousand percent.
David SyvertsenHost
04:22
Yes, they were grandfathered into a $500 rate. Now they're paying $4,500. I mean again, not a crazy number, but again that's subjective. That is a big number to some, especially those that own six, seven, eight gyms.
Sam RheeCo-host
04:33
I just saw the gym chain in Norway, oslo, my fellow Vikings. Yeah, there was like 10 gyms that they affiliated because they just didn't want to pay that ginormous amount anymore. Yeah, because they just didn't want to pay that ginormous amount anymore.
David SyvertsenHost
04:44
Yeah, 45 grand, and you can understand it. And why are gyms de-affiliating? We'll get into that as we start talking about the sale. But that's a pretty scientific, objective reason why you're going to see numbers come down. There's less gyms doing the open. They can't do the open unless they video. Most people will not do it. And then you combine that with the influencers. Do you think would you tie the Lazar situation into the influencers, because that's why many of them have declined? Do you think there's a lot of CrossFitters worldwide that say, hey, I don't want to support this organization because of what happened?
Sam RheeCo-host
05:19
To a certain degree, yes, and I don't even think so much. It was the jukic thing. It was how crossfit responded yeah, right, right, okay. So I think that that was really the issue. Um, so, I mean, tragedies occur. There are unfortunate events that no one has, uh, can anticipate, let's put it that way. Yeah, but, um, honestly, I put a lot of this in the lap of CrossFit HQ in terms of how they managed stuff.
David SyvertsenHost
05:47
Yeah, you know it bothered me a little bit. I'll say this now it seemed like they didn't start pushing the open until two weeks before, because they probably had like an oh shit moment, right, like oh wow, the numbers are really down, yeah, so now I think that's the only reason why Dave Castro started interviewing affiliate owners. He started doing that on his channel every day. Reason why Dave Castro started interviewing affiliate owners he started doing that on his channel every day and I think he was just I don't want to call it was not fake. We had a good conversation with him, but it wasn't. It was almost like a panic move because he hasn't been doing it since.
Sam RheeCo-host
06:14
You know, ever since the open started, he hasn't really been doing them you know, and I think we mentioned it, the one person who has really single-handedly almost helped CrossFit more than any other is Rich Froning. Yes, I've seen him everywhere and that guy is I'm leaning into him hard, yeah, and he's beyond reproach. I mean, really, the guy is Captain America of CrossFit and Mayhem has been the standard bearer for CrossFit and I've listened to him on different talks talking about it and the guy's a winner.
David SyvertsenHost
06:46
He is.
Sam RheeCo-host
06:46
And if it wasn't for him, I don't think CrossFit would have anybody to sort of be that media guy.
David SyvertsenHost
06:52
For them, the open to me is hanging on by a thread and that thread is returning Yep. Can you imagine if he was one of those guys that says you know what, screw this, I'm done with these guys. I think the numbers would maybe even double in terms of any of the people that were out Agreed, and I would like to think it wouldn't affect me at all. But I've looked up to Rich in a lot of ways since 2012. Just like beyond the athlete side too, just like who he is, the affiliate, what he has as an athlete. For example, he has his games athletes mandatory. You have to work out with the class every week. Hop into a like.
07:23
I love blending elite performance with classes. I think that's a key reason why we've done well over the years and I think that's a key reason why gyms that have been around a long time they don't say, hey, good athletes over there, bad athletes over there, we're all on this together. So there's a lot too rich that I like. Um, I also think that rich is much more level-headed and has been around longer than most of these guys. Like he was around pre-Instagram boom, so he was just like to the core CrossFitter that just did it the right way. And then you know, I can't say I know him well enough to say his ego isn't as big as some of the others, but he does seem like he has kept himself centered down to earth throughout this entire boom of CrossFit and I think it's easy to listen to a guy like that because you can relate to a little bit more.
08:13
My biggest fear if I'm CrossFit why registrations are down is disinterest. That would be my biggest fear. It's not people protesting, it's not people just hey, my gym's no longer affiliated, it's I don't care anymore. I just don't want to do it. I talked to an athlete that I used to compete with really high level athlete and she to me was Miss CrossFit locally and I was talking to her last week and she's just like yeah, I don't even know what the workouts are. I was like, wow, like it really has gone from refreshing my phone every five minutes near three o'clock Eastern to see what the workout is and doing it four times in three days to I don't know what they are.
Sam RheeCo-host
08:57
I feel that. Do you feel that I did? I did this year. I felt disappointed a little bit with how CrossFit HQ had been managing things. Yeah, it's my 10th year and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to have to go through all this again. Yep, I feel badly because it's like I know the people who have done it fewer times have and who are newer have a lot of enthusiasm and I would love to lean into that more. But I'm also like, oh man, I got to do this again. Like I know what kind of mood, like I know generally what it's going to be like and I'm just like you know.
David SyvertsenHost
09:29
So it's okay to. It's okay to feel that way, and I respect you for saying it too, because I think that that might be the biggest problem CrossFit has right now.
Sam RheeCo-host
09:37
Yeah, the enthusiasm ebbs and wanes and goes up, goes down. Yeah, I don't think I would ever stop, but I think I would love to see them do something to make it more exciting. I'm not saying change it, but you got to do something different with it in some way. I mean, I don't think they have really changed much and I don't know, for some of the OG guys it's like well, we know exactly what this is all about, Right. Yeah, and it's like well, we know exactly what this is all about Right.
David SyvertsenHost
10:05
Yeah, and it's like I heard someone, I saw something funny on Instagram. It's like, all right, here I am about to go do the three week open with two movements I can do to pay 30 bucks to have this website tell me that I rank 87,000th in the world for the ninth year in a row, while battling a back injury, shoulder injury and have to hire a babysitter. You know, like, yes, it's, it's funny to me and I think this is the way our world is in general. You, you get I don't want to say sick of it, you just want to go do something else. I, I almost was, like I was feeling I just I can tell after one of the workouts I forget which one and it wasn't like, it wasn't, you were sour, you're just like, like whatever.
Sam RheeCo-host
10:44
I really just want to get back to our regular training. Yeah, I want us to just get back to our regular programming, not have to gear up for all this, you know pre-open stuff. I want us to just like do what we normally do, cause that's what I love, yeah, which is CrossFit every day. Yeah, not just like I feel like I always get less fit during these three weeks, absolutely, and so it just that that part of it bugs me. But, um, and also maybe because I coach thursdays, so I'm always like, okay, guys, we're just gonna like take it easy, yeah, very chill day, yeah.
11:13
And then I'm like come on, guys, let's, let's do something where we can hard, yeah, where we can chase it and we don't have to just like gear up for friday. But whatever I mean again, I think I'm a little salty because I've done it for a while, but I also want CrossFit to. If I was a marketing person in CrossFit, I would say like we should have 5 million ideas to make this a bigger thing, right?
David SyvertsenHost
11:36
Yeah, I think that's where they're at and we're going to see a change in leadership soon and I don't know what's going to happen to the games team or Castro or Adrian, and we'll touch on that. But I do, I can see it, I, I know. I also know at Ramson has tell me a little time he's like Dave, but you like, you love this stuff, like okay, you love it, like you're biased in that, like I do, I love the open, I love pushing myself, I love getting nervous, I love watching people, but I get, I understand the stay on this. Here's an example the sunday open gym used to be packed, oh yeah, with like 75 people, yeah, repeating trying to one-up this person, which annoyed us and we told them to stop, but like it was still there was like fire. You know, and I want to touch on I think some of that is just losing interest.
12:29
Moving on, hey, I've hit my peak as a competitive CrossFitter. Most people here have. I'll say that, yeah, all right, most people are not going to get much better. Our demographics are that Right and they've been doing it for a long time. Yeah, and they're not going to do the last 10% of changing your entire life to get better across. They're just not going to do that Right. They don't need to, right. So it's like what new are you finding out? You know you're hoping to get lucky with programming or avoid unlucky, but what is the desire to put all that angst into it? And you can feel it. I can feel that in the gym there's always going to be the usual suspects that put everything into it. They get nervous. I'm still there. I'm a usual suspect. By the way, it's not a demeanor, I'm not demeaning anyone by saying that.
13:16
But it's less than it used to be, and volume is a part of this. That's what we're talking about Less registrations and, to quote Tim Carroll when he came on with this, that competing did things change around him and I feel that pressure all the time. If I stop caring, other people are going to stop caring, If you know, should I fake it? You know like I'm not there right now at all, but could I see, am I going to be doing this when I'm 67 years old? You know, stressing me out the open, Probably not. So at what point does that start to wean a little bit and does that have a negative impact on others? And I think other athletes feel the same way.
Sam RheeCo-host
13:52
We need some help from CrossFit.
David SyvertsenHost
13:53
HQ to help get this going. Let's stop changing the season so much, because I honestly think that is the silent killer other than apathy and disinterest. Is they change it Meaning you had top 10% and everyone's going hard for it? That was the highest energy our gym had for a year since COVID was once 10% and everyone's like going hard for it. That was the highest energy our gym had for a year since COVID was once. 10% was a thing. You had an achievable goal, yep. And then they made it to 25%, which is okay in that it opened the door for other people, but it kind of deflated some of the others that were aiming for the 10 because 25 was easier for them.
14:29
That was also tough for affiliates to have to deal with all those people. 25 was too many, 10, I thought, was a good number. I do think five might be the sweet spot, but I do whatever. Right, but the fact that you have all these people, and one thing we know about CrossFit they just make changes almost every year, every year, and it can make you again. It comes back to like, why do they want me to care about them if they are showing they don't really care about me? That is correct. The community cup might help. That's going to be tbd.
14:56
I do think, like you just said, you want to get back to normal training, right? Yeah, I have a feeling and we're going to push it. By the way, community cup not going to make anyone do it. It's 50 bucks, by the way. I think so. Or it's like it's another registration, another cash grab and it's a week. It's a week long work. That was do we have to not do our normal routine? Right, because you want to get back to know everyone wants to get back to like.
15:17
So many people say what you said yeah, I'm done with the open, I'm done with semifinals, I'm done. I just want to go crossfit again. Right, because that is what I'd like to do. Yes, we're two months away from all right guys, community cups coming. We have to start doing this, doing that, this and that we have a new member that comes on Friday mornings and he's like so anti, he's like I don't want to judge anyone. He'll literally do the workout twice. He'll do the workout with he one and then he'll do the workout with he two because he doesn't want to try. It's so funny and I open.
15:48
I think it's important. Some of you were like what right, right, I didn't come here to count someone's reps at 5 16 in the morning, right, so that that to me, if you're gonna start telling gyms no, go back into the fire in june after your quarterfinals, after semifinals, right before summer. I don't know if affiliates are gonna get behind it. It depends on how they implement it, I guess. So these changes that cross it keeps throwing at us. It does. It's annoying. It is Like and this is what happened in 2018, 19, sorry, when they took away regionals. That was the first time we've seen registrations.
Sam RheeCo-host
16:20
Yes, even though it was expensive, but it helped affiliates.
David SyvertsenHost
16:24
So much it did. And it's funny. I remember thinking back then. I was like you know what 80,000 less people signed up Like none of those guys probably were ever going to make regionals. But it wasn't about making regionals, it was about you knew what the system was going to be.
16:38
Yes, you had a goal to strive for. I strived for it every year. I never got close, yeah, but it kept me motivated all year. Yes, the aspiration. So now it's top 10%. Yeah, I mean like that's just not realistic.
16:52
Yes, for most people. Or it is realistic, but they don't want to change their entire life Right To get better at CrossFit. That's correct. So I think the instability at the top and I hate pointing fingers when I don't know all the facts, but I've been an affiliate owner for 11 years now and I've been very involved in the sport it's unstable at the top, it just is. And it does come across pompous and you are pompous to others If we were pompous to you. They're out, they're leaving and there's a good shot. You're never getting them back. So I think it is time for them to do something with the Open to show us hey, not this dramatic change, but we're going to try to really make this something, that we're going to put action behind our words. We don't just want you to sign up for the community. We're going to really put action into making this a real thing. That's not going to change year after year.
Sam RheeCo-host
17:41
I want them to prove to me that they care about the affiliate and every move that they make is helping us, not hurting us.
David SyvertsenHost
17:49
Don't make 20-minute workouts in the Open. That's it. I've been saying this for years. There's no point. Yeah, don't make the workout 20 minutes, because that tells me we don't give an F about your hour class. That's correct. And there are a lot of people here in the gym that, like the mornings were dead on five and six and you want to know why. You know you're not going to be here. You're People can't do that. No, they got to work and get out of here. Yeah, so that's again. It kills the vibe. I had people at 6 am on Friday say like it's not as like snappy as it used to be and like, well, there's like nine of the athletes that usually get after it. They can't come, they're not here. So that's just something that I think needs to be thought into, and someone in there needs 2013 in my garage. That should be you. We'll see. All right, my phone's on. Okay, speaking of my phone being on, I will not be buying CrossFit. Sam, crossfit is for sale. Why do you think they're announcing this, right?
Sam RheeCo-host
18:39
now Because they are trying to put pressure on somebody or there's a leak that's going to happen and so they need to get in front of it. Leaks are common, something like that. They wouldn't announce it unless they had to During the open Right, which is terrible timing it was so there was something that forced their hand, that made them have to do that the Savant crew Sousa.
David SyvertsenHost
19:02
they're convinced. They know Some people are convinced it's already bought by someone. I know as much for a fact as I possibly can in my position. It's not sold, it is. There are a lot of people lining up to buy this. What's a lot Like, more than a handful. Okay, Then, that's just what I know. I bet there's other people. There's a lot of people out there with a lot of money. There are Right, and a lot of people love CrossFit and a lot of people also think they can do a better job than everyone else at anything. They see something I can do better. In most cases it's not the case, but I bet there's a lot of egos with money that are seeing this as an opportunity to see something that probably is on the low. Smart investments are when you buy low. I don't know what the numbers are. I don't know how much it costs, but I know it's probably not increased value since these guys bought in 2020.
Sam RheeCo-host
19:50
That was 200 million at the time.
David SyvertsenHost
19:51
Yeah, so it was 200 million. I bet it'll go for under that.
Sam RheeCo-host
19:54
Yes, of course, there's less value now than there was in 2020.
David SyvertsenHost
19:57
And people are de-affiliating and that's where they get a lot of their money from is how much money are they getting from the actual affiliate? And if there are less affiliates than there were five years ago, scientifically, scientifically, you're going to, it's going to be worth less, I think from what I have read, they're still making a profit, but that's not a lot of profit.
Sam RheeCo-host
20:16
I've heard numbers like maybe 10 million a year or something like that, but I don't even know if that's true.
David SyvertsenHost
20:24
And they.
Sam RheeCo-host
20:25
It's not high, it's probably not much higher than that, and so the rumors that I have heard have included some Saudi group Yep.
20:31
To buy fitness challenge that group over there or some group called B Sports, which I think is a conglomerate that owns multiple things. Okay, and I have heard that they did this to put pressure on them because they didn't want to pay the money that they wanted to Got it. So they opened it to try to get these guys to bid higher. Pretty tactical, I guess. I don't really know. I what really surprises me is why people think they could take CrossFit and make it better. Like, what is their strategy? I mean, we've talked to people and most of the things that excited me the most about um CrossFit, uh, in terms of ideas how to make it better, were completely off the wall. Ideas, Same Stuff like merge with Orange Theory, you know, take over all of their existing affiliates and just make them all CrossFit. Not gonna happen, I know, but like or I'll tell you what?
David SyvertsenHost
21:28
What? I think what we're doing is an avenue. What do you mean With Outlast? I think that's an avenue you mean. So explain that to me. Most crossfits that start struggling, or even all existing, should probably get I don't want to call it cross at light, but I know someone will call that but we know there's people that will not come here because it's crossfit. We know that. Okay, they will come here because there's lifting, there's conditioning and there it's CrossFit. We know that. Okay, they will come here because there's lifting and there's conditioning, and it's going to be.
21:55
You're not coughing when you work out. You're not doing Fran. You're not writing your scores on the board. There's no RX, you know like. You have a coach still there. And I think a lot of gyms that start to hit a struggle point. They don't know what to do with that. They're just hoping new people walk in. They want Facebook ads, they want CrossFit to find members for them. They are going to do friends deals, which, again, all that stuff is fine, but it's not going to move the needle enough. I think you need to find a different stream of revenue and not only be dependent on CrossFit affiliates. So I do see a merge.
Sam RheeCo-host
22:31
So let's unpack that. The first thing is that you're saying and I believe this and I've talked to multiple people about it the CrossFit name is not helping gyms.
David SyvertsenHost
22:41
It's not helping. It's not hurting, but it's not helping. I'm just gonna. I'll agree with that.
Sam RheeCo-host
22:44
So, in order to bring more people in, you have to actually change the programming to a certain degree in. You have to actually change the programming to a certain degree which, if you're a CrossFit truther, like, can you imagine telling a red shirt uh, your methodology is not attractive to gym members. We need to change it. Like that would be the ultimate. Uh, anathema like the, the, like that's heresy, like that's like going to I don't know, yeah.
23:12
It's like the most sacrilegious thing you could possibly say to someone who's been steeped in the CrossFit philosophy for their entire career.
David SyvertsenHost
23:22
One thing I've been able to do and I'm still able to do. I don't think it's hard. I can remove what I feel and believe away from reality, and I can listen to others and I can pick up on trends and say, hey, this is what it is. I can. I can put the red shirt on I shouldn't say that because I'm not a red shirt. I can put the CrossFit hat on and scream until I die and say, hey, at least I died on that Hill, but I don't want to die.
23:49
And again, I think we all need to realize we're not employees. We're not. We do not work for them. That's correct, you know.
23:56
I believe in their methodology, but I also have said this since 2014. It's not for everyone. Everyone should try it and the coaching should be good. The programming should be good. The gym itself should do a very good job at what it takes to be a good affiliate. It's still mean. There's still going to be people that will never walk in.
24:19
And, yes, their marketing has been poor. Since we've been involved. It's always been poor. We kind of laughed about it, but now you're getting to a point. It's like, guys, you know, declining memberships. Young people are not starting this anymore. People are getting burnt out. They're becoming apathetic towards it. We're seeing in the open, we're seeing in their performance what's the backup move and I think the best, best businesses, they're ahead of the problems. They can see it coming and they can. They don't just react to them, they're proactive. That's where I think crossfit needs to find four affiliates and build it up. And I think one of the biggest issues that crossfit has and it's gonna be the biggest struggle I I said I'm going to die on this hill is the old schoolers, the red shirts, the, the Dave Castro following. They will fight anything that they disagree with. They won't be open to new stuff, and that's a big group of people.
Sam RheeCo-host
25:11
It's a loud group. I think they would rather see the CrossFit business die than to alternate and and offer a CrossFit light or an Outlast programming or anything of the sort.
David SyvertsenHost
25:21
I agree, and that's sad to me because, to me, while we're doing this, maybe this is where I'm disconnected with some of those guys. You're here to help people out. You're here to serve people. You're here to change their lives. You're here to get them off the couch, lift weights, get their heart rate up, build bonds of community, create an economy within this facility that you have. Right, you could use bison as an example. It's its own economy now.
25:43
That has nothing to do with fitness, but you brought people together. The baseline was fitness. Right, come for the workout, stay for the community. You can do that with people that will never come to across it. Why wouldn't you do it? At the end of the day, that's what I care most about. I care about people like my parents having somewhere to come work out over the past 20 years. All right, they don't want to come over there. You can preach that, dave, you're not doing a good job selling it. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not good at selling it, but maybe these people are individuals and you're not going to brainwash them into thinking they have to be over there. So does that mean you just push them to the side? Oh, we're CrossFitters, you guys stay out there. No, find a different way to serve them. At the end of the day, the methodology can still live on in a gym like Outlast, it's just not the full bore.
Sam RheeCo-host
26:33
I think that sort of speaks to two possible buyers for CrossFit One who is going to be a CrossFit truther who is like all in on Dave Castro and that methodology, and if someone like that buys it, it's going to dwindle into a culty fitness like tiny little micro-mimulant 2012 CrossFit.
26:50
Yeah, it's going to be so tiny because it's all just a bunch of crazy ass people who are over there doing this crazy stuff and nobody's going to actually follow it. Or it's going to be somebody who thinks differently, wants to institute major change, and then all the original guys are probably going to end up leaving because I don't think you're going to be able to get them to change. And so CrossFit will morph into something that we haven't seen before, like something really different which will probably put all the Castro followers up in arms, and it's going to be like this big bloody, you know, sort of conflict between, especially with all the media. Now, right, and then there's going to be an offshoot, and then, like some people's going to run off and like, do what WFP is trying to do, right, like we're a Metfix or like they'll grab Classman again and be like, hey, let's start a new offshoot of this. This is not the real thing anymore.
David SyvertsenHost
27:44
So do you ever think, like this? Right, because I always try to like. When I hear you talk like that, I'm like. My head immediately goes to Sam's not right, he's not wrong. I'm trying to like all right. Right, because I think that's a part of listening is can you actually understand what you're saying right now? Not disagree or agree with it, just can I relate to it.
28:02
Let's take bison, for example. Yeah, all right. Let's say new owners come in, we make all these changes. People are happy, people unhappy. And then these eight people, like you know what f this, we're gonna just do crossfit. Only I'm going down the street. They grab 30 members with them, and there's two people over there that, like you know, I think we could do it better. We're'm going down the street, they grab 30 members with them, and there's two people over there that, like you know what, I think we could do it better. We're going to go down the street that direction. We're bringing 30 people over there. So now, that 30 person gym over there, that 30 person gym over there, it's not big enough to sustain a business.
28:28
You eventually crash and burn and then you've also taken a huge bite out of this place and it's almost like it's not helping anyone. Those are like churches, dude. Yeah, oh yeah, this is like church politics. It is like church politics. That's actually a great analogy.
28:45
I talked to my mom about some of the stuff that's going on at upper level CrossFit, and even some of the stuff that we've been dealing with over here over the past six, seven months, and she's like this is exactly what we went through at the church, because my dad pioneered a pretty big change at the church out here.
28:58
That was the church. It went down to half its size, it split because of it and then it got built back up and I wonder if that is the best long-term move. I don't think there's anyone in this gym that loves Castro and the old school as much as I do, but I see the faults and I do wonder if they are humble enough to see big changes from a new ownership and adapt. Or do they just like no, dave, I know what I'm doing more than you know what I should be doing. Example if someone came from here, from Nike, came to Bison and said, dave, you need to do this, this and this, I don't know if I would just change just because they thought I should change. It depends on how much they're giving you Right. That's part of it, it is, and it's also how much are we struggling If we went down 30%? True.
Sam RheeCo-host
29:46
But then what if they were like, okay, we're going to make you our flagship gym here. Yeah, you do it this, this and this, and we're throwing in like a million dollars, yeah, and if you're like, and if you don't, we're going to drive a Batman to the gym, well, yeah, but then you're going to have to follow everything that they say, or they said, we're going to go down to down the street to the next town, over to that gym and we're going to make them our flagship. So then what do you do? So? So it's a great question. A lot of these issues, I mean, I feel like what we've done and what you've planned is the right thing, because you are not, as much as you are, a CrossFit truther yeah, you also realize you have to appeal and to the individual, evolve and adapt, evolve and adapt, and we've seen the path that we think will help that, yeah, and how, at the end of the day, we're going to make more people fitter, exactly that's what it is.
30:43
Healthier, happier, regardless of whether it's CrossFit or Outlast or whatever. It's about making other people fitter. I don't know what these guys are going to do with CrossFit. Are they really thinking how are we going to help our affiliates? How can we make them better? Because they haven't? There's no reason that I can think of right now why I would want to stay affiliated. I think we're staying in it because we should see what new ownership does. Are they really going to make us better? And also loyalty, like listen. There is something to be said about being an 11-year affiliate.
David SyvertsenHost
31:12
There is.
Sam RheeCo-host
31:12
And they have rewarded us. We've done the open announcements here. We are one of their biggest gyms in the country and the world and so they recognize that. So we're not going to give that up lightly. But I will say you have a voice within CrossFit HQ. You're someone who actually has talked to multiple people at multiple levels and I think your voice needs to be heard, because if they're not going to reach out and help, you've helped them about 500 times more than they've helped you. What have they given you other than throwing you an open announcement which totally disrupted everything, didn't help our membership. It cost us money. It cost us a lot of money and time and effort.
David SyvertsenHost
31:54
Great experience. I just want to put that out there. That gave me a once in a lifetime experience. Listen, listen, watching Krennikov and. But I agree with you, there is probably a little bit more give-than-take on that, and I'm not against it. But you could take Dave Bison out of it, take us out of it and say there's a lot of good affiliates out there and and this is where the discussion is going to go to at some point that Green Bay Packers style, the owners of really good gems should be part owners of.
Sam RheeCo-host
32:23
CrossFit. You know De Silva mentioned that. It's like, okay, how much do we have to invest?
David SyvertsenHost
32:28
And is it worth it? I know, should we have to invest, to be honest with you, right.
Sam RheeCo-host
32:32
So that'd be a selection Like listen, I'm not dropping 100 grand or 500 grand.
David SyvertsenHost
32:36
And then for what? Again, that would be another give Right. And then for what? What am I getting back for that? Like if CrossFit said Bison and these 10 gyms could be part owners across, you guys could own 20% of all CrossFit, but you have to give us a hundred grand. It's like hold on. What am I getting back from that Other than I get to go sit in a meeting with someone and shake their hands To me. No offense to anyone there, I don't care that much about that.
Sam RheeCo-host
32:58
That's an insane amount of risk too. I mean, for some people a hundred grand is a drop in the bucket, but for most of us it's like that's a crap load of money Right and think about if we had a hundred grand to do.
David SyvertsenHost
33:09
I'd rather put it into here, Absolutely.
Sam RheeCo-host
33:12
I'd rather put it into this gym. It's so much better than just handing it to HQ right now.
David SyvertsenHost
33:18
To me, that's right there. What you just said is sad. You don't trust HQ to bring a return on investment, but you do trust yourself and that is the sign that I think every affiliate would say the same thing. That's a problem. I think new owners that come into CrossFit right now that needs to be the number one thought it's not. Let's get to 15,000 affili affiliates. Let's get to 20 million crossfitters. That number came out of thin air. I don't care what anyone says. That came out of thin air. 20 to 30 million people crossfitting. There's two to three now that, like you can't fit that into these affiliates. Right, you'd have to have, you'd have to times 10 the amount of affiliates in the world like that.
33:58
And I think these, these guys that come from finance backgrounds and tech backgrounds and I went to Harvard and I went there they're not in tune with what has actually made CrossFit CrossFit. And is the affiliates? Are there bad ones out there? Yeah, there's bad leaders out there too. You know there's bad businesses everywhere. In any realm of business, there's bad people doing bad things. But there's enough data now, there's enough experience and there's enough information that I should be able to go find why this works and why this doesn't work, and I should be leaning into why it works. To me, it's not that complicated of a situation from that perspective, and I actually don't know if CrossFit is fully present with the fact that it hasn't been them that did all this. I don't know if they're actually aware of that.
Sam RheeCo-host
34:44
I don't know. I think the group of people that are both understanding of CrossFit as, like you said, what type of business it is, what it takes for it to do well who also have $200 million to invest, is a very small number. Like there are tons of people who have 200 million to invest. Like it's shocking. When I talk to finance people, they're like that's a tiny deal, that's like that's nothing, like we don't touch anything under 500 million. Someone said that to me last week and I was like what? Nothing under 500 million? That's stupid and I'm like wow. But I mean for those people at that level, they're not interested in what we're interested in as affiliates at all. They're interested in what is my potential growth rate? Can I get to 10 or 15% a year? Like, and to me that is completely like maybe you can get there, but there's not. It's not your typical Starbucks or or McDonald's or F45. Like there's a way to get there, but you're going to have to figure out how to do that and nobody has figured that out.
David SyvertsenHost
35:44
Yet it's like someone saying how many times have you heard someone I'll make the games Cool. How do I get there? I don't know. I just want to make the games. I want to go compete. I want to get a picture of me on Instagram saying Instagram saying I came in first place on a podium. Do you know the process, process over results? Do you know what it takes to get there? Nobody does, by the way, I'm not saying I do.
Sam RheeCo-host
36:06
I just remember that one guy who came in and said he wanted to be Matt Froning, matt Frazier, matt Frazier. And then he started working out and it was just like oh, this is way harder than I thought, sam.
David SyvertsenHost
36:15
I've seen that 50 times in this gym alone and I'm not. I've been in that situation before. I think I can get to that level and I can't. And again, I always say that's another reason why I push the open it's going to humble everyone at some point.
Sam RheeCo-host
36:28
So you think the finance guys are like that when they come in and they're like I want to get I do I do.
David SyvertsenHost
36:33
I've finance guys, guys that I'm friends with, I respect. They know a lot more about stuff than I do, but I have never met someone that's in that world that understands how this works.
Sam RheeCo-host
36:47
So what's your prediction about?
David SyvertsenHost
36:47
who's going to buy it? What's going to happen in the next six months? Oh man, I think we're going to see another Berkshire type group buy it that maybe has a tie with some well, that does have a tie with an enthusiast. Okay, someone that has a voice. I'm just gonna use Rich Froning as an example. It's not, I'm not talking about Rich Froning, but say he gets cooked up with a private equity firm and then they're gonna kind of like he's with them, he's part of their crew, he's not investing money but he kind of endorses them.
37:17
And that figurehead or someone that has previous experience at some sort of leadership in CrossFit because at the end of the day you can usually find connections that if you really dig deep enough and you're a celebrity like that, that that group will buy it for X amount and they're going to really lean into that one person to be the face of it and it's going to be fun and exciting for a year, like I bet we see open registrations go up next year. But who they hire as leadership CEO, coo, cfo, global affiliates, all that stuff everyone's going to look for something to criticize and you have to really screen people and not find someone that talked badly about CrossFit in the past. They have a tweet from 2013 trashing something. It's the way our world works. They're going to find out Hiller's going to find out at some point something negative you said about the brand and they're going to use it against you because you didn't pick his boy to lead the brand. So I think that is what's going to happen.
Sam RheeCo-host
38:13
It's going to be a private equity group, a financial group that has a figurehead that some people like Do you think they're going to keep the same financial model and not really change it up too much, or do you think they're going to try to change how it works with the affiliates and everything else?
David SyvertsenHost
38:26
I think you're going to have to change up the model. And how are they going to change that up? I think they're going to I don't want to say partner, not like Orange Theory, but like I could see a relationship with someone like high rocks, you know, or more franchisee kind of yeah, so more regulations and rules and stipulations.
38:43
Yeah, Uh, but not down to the programming, because like that's just impossible to do. You can't tell gyms what to do. It's like you just can't because of equipment and everything. But I think you could standardize reporting, you know, like sending in quarterly reports to cross it.
Sam RheeCo-host
38:59
How are they going to incentivize affiliates to do that? How do they support them? Because I don't want to send my crap to them unless I get something back for it.
David SyvertsenHost
39:08
I don't know to be honest with you, and I think part of that is the reason why you get a figurehead in there. Yeah, that, we just saw it. People listen to influencers Right, you get the right influence up there. Yeah that, we just saw it. People listen to influencers Right, you get the right influence up there. They will do what you tell them to do.
Sam RheeCo-host
39:21
Not all of them, though I think you're right. Hq needs more information from their affiliates. They know nothing about their fricking affiliates, yeah, and so you need to have them report, but how they're going to do that?
David SyvertsenHost
39:43
And that's how they're going to do that either. And influencers matter, and I think that's part of it. And the last thing I would say there has to be full cohesion. There has to be a lot of cohesion between who's owning it, who they're going to name CEO, which might still be Don Fall, do you think so Really? I'm saying could be, I have no idea. Do you think he's going to stay? I think he'll stay if they let him. I would think so. I think he's passionate about what he does. I think he loves CrossFit, but if he knows the inner workings, which I'm sure he does, then hey, there's not the upside. We're not getting to 20 to 30 million people.
Sam RheeCo-host
40:07
He might want to move on.
David SyvertsenHost
40:15
So that would be actually a bad sign. If he decides to move on, then that might be like a pretty big influencer there, like if I had that much money and I was going to buy it, I was part of a group, like I would do everything I could to make Rich Froning like the figurehead, because I think people really do follow him from old school, new school athletes, non-athletes, affiliate owners and I think Rich Froning they're going to need to leverage him somehow. He's like CrossFit Jesus at this point, honestly kind of is Because I'm telling you, if he's out, if he doesn't like this new ownership, I mean I think the biggest question is what do you do with Dave Castro? That's a tough one. That's the biggest question. What do you think Some people say?
40:56
Like you do not fire him right away because there's going to be a huge. But if you are a rip the bandaid off person, which a lot of people are, just rip the bandaid off. I could see him not being a part of this, and then you're going to fear him going to Rogue and starting a new sport, or you know, I'm big on that. Very few people do. But I also think that what I've said to someone about myself and other people. The skill set and the person that gets you from one to five is not always the person that gets you from six to 10. I read that last year. It just makes so much sense in my head. It doesn't mean they can't be the same person, but usually it's just different skill sets and I do wonder if new leadership would look at him as, like hey, admire good job, six to 10 has got to be somebody else. And how their community responds to that I think will dictate a huge part of and how Dave Cascio handles. That would be a huge part of what happens to the future CrossFit.
41:56
And I'll wrap it up with I hope anyone old school CrossFitter would not look at this whole thing community perspective of hey, if I'm not involved, I want it to do poorly. I look down on people like that, like hey, if I'm out, I want them to do poorly. But it's going to make me feel better about myself because I was that important, right, I was right, I left and now look at them, I want them to do bad. It's going to make me look better Because again, this whole thing is all revolves around being unselfish and being a servant attitude. I would hope that if any of these guys left, it would be a really respectful I resign. Good luck to you. You never have to help them out again. You could say whispers with your friends, everything but publicly.
42:34
I think how anyone handles a big change will matter a lot. All right, thank you guys. Those are our thoughts on registration, the sale across it. We're going to, you know, hold true here and just kind of do our thing and hopefully whoever buys it ends up buying it. Uh, can take this thing to another level. Was still very much believe in it, but leadership does matter. All right, We'll see you guys next week. Thank you everybody for taking the time out of your day to listen to the Herd Fit Podcast. Be on the lookout for next week's episode.
